Exhumation

[Suzi]

Right!- OK if at the end of the day they 'Bring 'er up'-'Oop she comes' (* Memories of Thora Hurd...can't remember the name of the programme in the '70s) But......... that apart....

With Mary- Now assuming that the body underneath the gravestone- that we all assume is Mary' (or there again maybe not.........) What are we going to do with any DNA that may be retrieved??...Compare it with who's??? ....To be honest if we had someone who we compare anything to ...wouldnt they have been put forward as a 'relation' years ago!! Oddly there are worryingly mega gaps as soon as anyone puts their foot in that particular water!!!

Blimey!! Our Mary is sooooo elusive- to suddenly find someone we could compare some DNA with would be a Total Revelation!! -(And maybe change our whole aspect of who and where this creature came from.....and maybe went to!!)....Her hum.........

I still remain to be convinced that the poor soul in Mary's grave is the incumbent of Miller's Ct we know and 'love' as Mary- but that's another whole can of worms /eels....

In a rather mawkish way I would like to see an exhumation of 'Mary' but at the end of the day what will it/that prove???

As to the others..the actual positioning of the burial sites is a tad spurious-so probably best left alone I say-

Sam-It was Mozart (!! NOT) that they picked out of a common grave and buried with some style a few years ago........Rest well Wolfy!!!!(wherever you are!!!)

Suzi xx

[Sam Flynn]

With Mary- Now assuming that the body underneath the gravestone- that we all assume is Mary' (or there again maybe not.........) What are we going to do with any DNA that may be retrieved??...Compare it with who's???

I may be wrong, Suzi, but if "Fingers o'Keefe" is on the police database, and a computerised search of the data throws up significant matches between sections of his DNA (autosomal, as opposed to mitochondrial) and those of "Mary's", then there'd be a calculable likelihood that "Great-great Granddad o'Keefe" was a close relative of "Mary's", possibly even her brother. (Repeat for "Great-great Granny o'Keefe", or any relative of comparable genetic separation.) Not sure quite how practical this would be, but based on my limited (albeit not quite non-existent) grasp of genetics, this ought to be possible.

In terms of ID'ing the murderer, however - not a cat's chance. Sorry, Dids

[Graham]

I cannot belive that this thread has kept going for as long as it has...

...of all the daft threads on these boards, this one takes the cake.

Poo!

Graham

[Suzi]

Exactly Sam!!!!!!!!!!! It's all toot!!!!.....where were we??.........let's go and sort out 'The Prophet' and his Barnardo lunacy I say- and forget this let 'em RIP (!!)

Dids says ...'That's OK Taff!'....and it's your round!!!! xxxxxxxxxxxxx

(Bugger that wouldn't that be the O'Keefes of Camarthen/Caernarvon would it?) He he x

[adamkle]

Adam, you keep saying this exercise may bring justice to the case but HOW? The killer is most definitely dead.;

No one knows, what we could find inside the coffin. Maybe nothing, maybe Kelly's DNA... cut marks on the bones, that could tell MODERN examiners something about tool of crime and mutilations... or even possible murderer's DNA or fingerprints. Yes, it would be a miracle, but... we don't even pray for it. I dare to pray. I still have a hope. (I know, hope is the mother for fools). JtR is dead. So what? The case is unsolved.

If you could positively identify the murderer, you could never achieve justice. All you could possibly do is create heartache and embarrassment to his/her family. That is no justice. It's an injustice they don't deserve.

What about the families and admirers of notable people, wrongly accused? What about the Jews from East End, who could feel 'framed'? What about Kozminskis, Druitts etc.? Aren't they 'small victims' of JtR? And he could 'kill' even now. Wasn't Sickert 'killed' as an artist in Cornwell's book (at least in the eyes of thousands of 'convinced' readers)?

Best regards,
Adam

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Adam!

Even if Mary Kelly's DNA would be found, what would be the use of it?! You can easily notice, while reading these boards, there has been at least hundreds of Welsh/Western-Irish/London Mary Kellies studied. No match! So, if "Mary Jane Kelly" is a pseudonyme - like I personally think these days - the haystack is too big to find a needle!

Then; what would be the use of finding cutmarks? Since most of them are described the best possible way in the Archives of the Scotland Yard, most probably the only thing to do is to include/exclude some extra cuts!

If the murderer could be found, it would definitely cause embarrassment and "shhhh..." -reactions to his family. Thats a tough question: on one hand, the case should be solved. On the other, it wasn't his relatives doing the killing!

All the best
Jukka

[adamkle]

Hello!

Even if Mary Kelly's DNA would be found, what would be the use of it?!

Let's say one day I will find a strange jar with human heart inside, hidden on the attic of my grandpa's house. There will be number 1888 and initals MJK on it. How could I verify if it was poor Kelly's heart?

What would be the use of finding cutmarks?

The science is evolving. Maybe we could compare them with other cases (even with the Torso). Of course, that would require digging out another victim...

I know all of it sounds unrealistic. I agree! But it is not impossible, so...

Best regards,
A

[joelhall]

Hello!


Let's say one day I will find a strange jar with human heart inside, hidden on the attic of my grandpa's house. There will be number 1888 and initals MJK on it. How could I verify if it was poor Kelly's heart?


The science is evolving. Maybe we could compare them with other cases (even with the Torso). Of course, that would require digging out another victim...

I know all of it sounds unrealistic. I agree! But it is not impossible, so...

Best regards,
A

thats this thread done i believe.

[Suzi]

The trouble is with this case is that ANYTHING'S possible...Church fetes,Granny's attic ,skips....who knows...That's what keeps us all nibbling away!!! OK? and there are threads that could be collapsed before this one believe me!! Rant Rant!!!#

Anyway the sense on this disappeared with Sam's last comment so.................................at least Did's is still here!!!..maybe not above Mary but pretty damned close.........close enough for jazz 'eh!!!

[Canadian Mari]

The science is evolving. Maybe we could compare them with other cases (even with the Torso). Of course, that would require digging out another victim...

I know all of it sounds unrealistic. I agree! But it is not impossible, so...

Best regards,
A

Hi Adam, I just wanted to reply to your last point, I'm an anthropologist, so I approached this from that P.O.V.
As others have said, DNA goes down to the condition of the bones, all things considered I would think it more likely than not to get it, but as it's the victims' DNA, I don't see it advancing the case.
Cut marks (also down to condition of the bones) interest me more. Yes they can be linked to other cases upon examination, some scientists would say with great certainty, others would say, "are consistent with"! It would, as you say, rest on comparison. Either other bones, or good enough scans, x-rays, photos, etc. This is the great impediment to linkage, and not a time factor, it could be cases going on right now, it's just knowing which cases to compare and having the info.
On a personal note, I've excavated people, and I wanted to say I love and respect them. That's why I do it, I believe that by telling their story I can honour them, and they can teach us. I think I know where you're coming from, but in this case I don't think the causes of either justice or science would benefit enough from the effort it would take. This is not to say I don't believe these women are worthy of the effort, I can just think of other ways the time, money and anthropologists would be better used, at this time. I'd say the reasons I think it's unrealistic are likely different from other members, I can think of ways it could be done, but at the moment I doubt the will would be there.
Sorry to ramble.

[anna]

Welcome to the boards Canadian Mari!
Wow!I don't think we have any other anthropologists here on Casebook.
I shall look forward to reading your future posts.
Anna.

[anna]

P.S....That's not ramblin' on,that was a bloomin' good answer,and one which we could have done with a lot sooner on this thread.
Nice one.

[Limehouse]

Welcome Canadian Mari, and I would like to echo Anna's comments. This is a vaulable contribution to the value or otherwise of exhumation.

[adamkle]

Hello Canadian Mari! Hello all!
Well, you have convinced me. I'm still dreaming about a kind of Holy Grail of this case, but now I understand, it's out of our reach.
Maybe somewhere in the future...
Sorry for being "enfant terrible" for such a long time, but thanks of you I learned a lot. If someone got upset beacuse any of my comments, please forgive me. My intentions were good.
Many thanks,
Adam

[anna]

No worries on my part Adam,was an interesting thread.