'Self inflicted' - seriously?

[Ausgirl]

I hadn't noticed this before.. but in Killeen's comments during the Tabram inquest, he makes a comment regarding the impossibility of the "whole" of the wounds being self-inflicted. It took me a moment to process that what he meant was probably not "none of the wounds" but "she could not have done it all herself".

Then we have Annie Millwood, who was (for some reason I can't quite work out) suspected of stabbing herself repeatedly in the legs.

Was infliction of grievous, multiple wounds to one's own body so common a practice for women that officials would even give pause to the idea when presented with a badly injured victim?

Were stabbed prostitutes just not taken very seriously, until Tabram, then Nichols, and the papers got hold of it?

[Pcdunn]

I think it is merely a sign of the time and place. Women in general were not taken seriously, why should those of the lowest "unfortunates" class be valued or listened to?
Remember, in this era, women didn't vote, could be sent to an asylum unjustly merely on a husband's or other male relative's word, and were believed to be of weak mind and liable to hysterical behavior on a monthly basis.

One thing that interested me in reading the news reports of Mary Ann Nichols's death was how they initially called her "a quiet, respectable woman", yet that changed after it was discovered that she was "an unfortunate".

Another thought is that stabbings went on so frequently in Whitechapel that the cops just didn't want to be bothered with investigating them.

[GUT]

I hadn't noticed this before.. but in Killeen's comments during the Tabram inquest, he makes a comment regarding the impossibility of the "whole" of the wounds being self-inflicted. It took me a moment to process that what he meant was probably not "none of the wounds" but "she could not have done it all herself".

Then we have Annie Millwood, who was (for some reason I can't quite work out) suspected of stabbing herself repeatedly in the legs.

Was infliction of grievous, multiple wounds to one's own body so common a practice for women that officials would even give pause to the idea when presented with a badly injured victim?

Were stabbed prostitutes just not taken very seriously, until Tabram, then Nichols, and the papers got hold of it?

I suspect that his comments at Tabram's inquest was to do with the purpose of an inquest, ie to establish Cause of Death and that needs to eliminate suicide, I would guess that it was common to make such a statement I know that it is not unusual today for a medical examiner to say something along the lines of "The wounds could not have been self inflicted"

[Batman]

What is more likely is that by the late 18th century science had by then well entered into a new era exposing where there had been a prior history of calling suicides, murders and some murders, suicides. Being brought to the magistrates attention in 1888 there was no more room for making blunders like this if they had the science to demonstrate otherwise. So I guess its a way of the Coroner covering themselves.

[martin wilson]

Hi Ausgirl.

They probably know what you silly creatures are like when you get an idea into your pretty little heads.

The one case I am currently reading up on is the murder of Annie Yates in Burton Crescent in 1884, also Mrs Samuels, Burton Crescent 1878.

One press report would certainly encourage you to keep a wary eye on your biscuit, being an attempt to explain Annie's death as an accident.

Trail has gone cold for the mo, if anybody knows if anyone was charged for either of the above, or any information about Mary Donovan or James Wells/Philips I would appreciate it.
All the best.

[David Orsam]

A classic case is the 1903 murder of Dora Piernick who was found in a locked room, on her bed, with her throat cut and no weapon in the room (or key to the door). Despite the absence of a weapon, the jury was told by the coroner that if they were unsure whether they were dealing with a case of suicide or murder they could return an open verdict, which is exactly what they did! The theory apparently being that someone might have found her dead body and taken the weapon away from the scene.

We might also note that PC Neil's first reaction on finding the body of Nichols was that it was a suicide (if the report of his evidence in the London Evening Post is to be believed). From my own research, when police saw the body of Emily Dimmock in her room in 1907 their first thought was that she had committed suicide and it was only when the doctor found that her head had nearly been cut off from her body that suicide was ruled out. So perhaps there was a default police view that dead bodies were suicides unless there was very good evidence to the contrary.

[Ausgirl]

Thanks everyone, lots of food for thought in all your replies.

No time right now for a better response, but just to let you know I'm reading and appreciating. Cheers.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

Good stuff David, sounds like a case for Sherlock Holmes.
Meanwhile, I invite you to consider
HORRIBLE MURDER AT HENDON
Being the gruesome death of William Sibley 61 of Burnt Oak Edgeware, fished out of the River Brent in January 1880 by George Abery in the press report, who has turned into David Dangerfield by the time of the inquest.
On retrieval from the river, parts of the abdomen were found to be missing.
Inspector Goldsmith and Sgt Porter found the various parts along the path to the bridge, along with a hat and a white handled knife, similar to a dessert knife.
George Abery son of the deceased said his father was complaining of stomach pains.
William Harris, blacksmith said Sibley had complained about a severe headache, adding "I will be the next to go"
Dr Andrews, Hendon, assisted by Dr Bond Police Surgeon was of the opinion the wounds to the abdomen were self inflicted, an opinion shared by Dr Bond.

Verdict; Suicide.

All the best.

[martin wilson]

Hi again,

The white handled dessert knife sounds familiar to the one produced by John Richardson at the inquest of Anne Chapman, somebody should really have said something to somebody because they appear to be bloody lethal.
One press report, in an early grab for The Star's circulation figures had Mr Sibley DISEMBOWELLED!!
Press reports are lol though, one reporter had the man as Thomas Selby.

All the best.

[GUT]

Hi again,

The white handled dessert knife sounds familiar to the one produced by John Richardson at the inquest of Anne Chapman, somebody should really have said something to somebody because they appear to be bloody lethal.
One press report, in an early grab for The Star's circulation figures had Mr Sibley DISEMBOWELLED!!
Press reports are lol though, one reporter had the man as Thomas Selby.

All the best.

Deadly those desert knives.

[martin wilson]

Too true GUT, I haven't come across any 'HORRIBLE DEATH WHILE SLICING DESSERT' headlines yet, but it's very early days and I'm fairly confident.

All the best.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

THAMES MYSTERY 17/11/1888.

This is the death by drowning of Florence Annie Hancock 26 of Pulross street Brixton found in the Thames of Wapping by William Wood, boatman on Friday 9th November.
She was identified by her husband George Hancock, a carpenter who she had left 2 years previous, and photographs by her friend Beatrice Williams, widow.
Last seen on October 22nd 1888 at 11.35p.m in the Northumberland at Charing Cross, where she was having a drink with Beatrice.
She was in the company of a man described as tall, fair. with a heavy moustache.

Mr Pain.
Friend of Florence, according to Williams, allowed her £5 a week, denied by Pain at the inquest, although he did call on her regularly..
He saw her on October 22nd at Broad St station. Florence told Beatrice she had 'had words with her gentleman, but still got her money'.
Pain left for a tour of the Lake District, Isle Of Man and Ireland, returning on 7th of November, Alice Land, servant of the deceased told him she had drowned and he seemed 'much upset'

All the best.

[martin wilson]

The Thames Mysteries probably need a thread to themselves, and extra bandwith I think, but I did a list of initial press reports.

10/5/1890 Unknown female.
28/3/1892 Elizabeth Emma Rogers 26.
15/12/1893 Kate Dungy
27/7/95 Agnes Norcutt/ unknown (Agnes turned up safe and well!)
13/3/1897 Lydia Smith 53.
12/6/1897 Unknown female, described as an unfortunate.
21/9/1897 Emma Johnson.
9/10/1897 Lily Cheeseman.
3/10/1903 Kate Eliza Rule.

As I say, initial press reports only at the moment.
All the best.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

SHOCKING OUTRAGE UPON A LITTLE CHILD. 29TH December 1882.

'Uncle Jack'?

At 8.p.m on the 20th December 1882, 5 year old Annie Fordham went missing from the gateway of her house in Bawcott street New Kent Road.
She was found on the doorstep of a publicans in Walworth at 1.am, exhausted and with bloodmarks about her.
She was taken indoors where her wife examined her and found she was cut about the body as with a knife (sic)
The parents had informed the police the child was missing, and when the publicans went to the police at Rodney road Walworth, they realised it was the missing child.
She was examined by Dr Evans, divisional surgeon who said the cuts were very severe, although not enough to endanger life.
Annie said a man took her hand and said he was her uncle Jack, after wandering about for a long time he took her down a dark turning, threw her down and hacked her about. After he left her she managed to crawl to the publcans.
She had never seen the man before.

All the best.

[Errata]

Self inflicted knife wounds actually are pretty common in some circles. As is blaming it on a mysterious attacker. Mentally ill people do it, and addicts in withdrawal do it. There's a reason people coming off drugs don't get sharp objects. When they start feeling the bugs under their skin, they will inflict an enormous amount of damage to themselves just with their fingernails. Imagine if they could get a knife to cut out the bugs.

When they come around they are embarrassed and afraid. They don't want to get locked up, so they say they were attacked.

It's estimated that 10% or more of knife injuries are purposefully self inflicted. Some do it for attention, some botched suicide attempts, some to relieve some kind of internal pressure. One guy skinned his own chest because he was bored. They were sure he was crazy, but no, just bored with a high pain threshold. It's not an unreasonable question.

It IS an unreasonable assumption unless they had some reason to believe that she was either mad or coming down hard off booze and flipped out.