Emma and the 'gang'

[Ausgirl]

Does anyone truly think the attack on Emma Smith was in any way related to either Annie Millwood, or the canonical JtR victims?

I'm not even sure why she's on the potential victim list. Because:

"As she would later report, she was returning home that night, probably the worse for drink, when at least three, maybe four youths began following her from Whitechapel Church. They would stop her on the corner of Brick Lane and Wentworth Street, where they beat, raped, and viciously jabbed a blunt object into her vagina, tearing the perineum. The boys emptied her purse before leaving her to die on the street."

Whereas, Millwood:

"...was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary suffering from numerous stabs in the legs and lower part of the body. She stated that she had been attacked by a man who she did not know, and who stabbed her with a clasp knife which he took from his pocket." -- One man. Not a 'boy'. No mention at all of rape, nor of robbery.

The end, in my opinion. Really, the end.

Unless this gang had an even roguey-er member who branched out on his own. Otherwise - sorry, but I just don't know why she's on the list at all.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ausgirl,

Inspector Reid, who investigated the Emma Smith murder, as well as at least one of his subordinates (Walter Dew) are on record as believing that Emma Smith - in spite of the story she told - was assaulted by one man. Her attack bore certain similarities to the attack upon and murder of Martha Tabram and they believed the murders were related. An earlier murder (November 1887) of a woman named Emily Horsnell is most likely related as well. She was attacked and beaten as was Emma Smith and died from peritonitis, but a post mortem was not carried out so we don't know what other injuries she may have suffered. The next month (December 1887), Emma Smith's mate, Margaret Hames, was similarly attacked and spent 20 days or so in the hospital, but she survived. Emma was next attacked on Bank Holiday in April 1888 and Martha Tabram on Bank Holiday in August. All four of these women (Emily, Margaret, Emma, Martha) lived each with or next door to each other at 18 and 19 George Street. One of these may have been a coincidence, but all four are extremely unlikely to have been unique, independent events.

I hope this helps.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

I don't know why a lot of things are or are not on the lists in Casebook, probably because at one time or another [when the lists were created] there was or wasn't interest in that topic.

Just look at the suspects list, people not on it who are at the very least worth a second look, people on it who I doubt anyone takes seriously.

[Ausgirl]

Tom, I am indeed grateful for the information on the other attacks. Is there a record of any these other women (aside from Millwood) leaving statements as to number and approximate age of attacker/s, and was there rape or robbery involved?

Why would Emma Smith lie about a gang of boys? Of course, she might have known her attacker and made up fibs to protect herself from further harm (which she seems to have experienced anyway?). But then we have blunt-object rape to consider, if not the robbery part - though of course, if she's lying the robbery would likely be part of the lie.

Millwood wasn't raped, or robbed, as far as I know. Just stabbed repeatedly in the lower body and left for dead.

I somehow find it not unlikely that a gang of youthful thugs (local or otherwise) was running about, shaking down whores, perhaps on nights they thought the women might have been busy. I'm sure the same thing happens to this very day.

Why must we assume Emma Smith was lying? Could a gang not have attacked other women, too?

[GUT]

Tom, I am indeed grateful for the information on the other attacks. Is there a record of any these other women (aside from Millwood) leaving statements as to number and approximate age of attacker/s, and was there rape or robbery involved?

Why would Emma Smith lie about a gang of boys? Of course, she might have known her attacker and made up fibs to protect herself from further harm (which she seems to have experienced anyway?). But then we have blunt-object rape to consider, if not the robbery part - though of course, if she's lying the robbery would likely be part of the lie.

Millwood wasn't raped, or robbed, as far as I know. Just stabbed repeatedly in the lower body and left for dead.

I somehow find it not unlikely that a gang of youthful thugs (local or otherwise) was running about, shaking down whores, perhaps on nights they thought the women might have been busy. I'm sure the same thing happens to this very day.

Why must we assume Emma Smith was lying? Could a gang not have attacked other women, too?

Perhaps but couldn't they find better targets than 4p prostitutes?

[Ausgirl]

Tom, I must add that I think it's possible the majority of those attacks, all on women from the same small area and somewhat similar in nature, and not very distant time-wise, are likely not a coincidence.

But I am far from convinced these attacks, aside from -possibly- Tabram (though I have my doubts there too) and -maybe- Miller (even more doubt) were in any way related to the Ripper.

Of course, more details on the other women would be useful, there, and I'd love to know what Hames might have said to police re her attacker... I suppose I shall have to purchase your book. Which I would cheerfully do, were there a way to do so via Paypal.

[Ausgirl]

Perhaps but couldn't they find better targets than 4p prostitutes?

Really, do we know how much any of these women were charging? Maybe the attacker/s just picked victims who were handy, on the way to or from their local pub? But I get your point.

If Smith was not lying about the gang, perhaps there was a group of lads trying to establish control of the trade in that little area?

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, I am indeed grateful for the information on the other attacks. Is there a record of any these other women (aside from Millwood) leaving statements as to number and approximate age of attacker/s, and was there rape or robbery involved?

Why would Emma Smith lie about a gang of boys? Of course, she might have known her attacker and made up fibs to protect herself from further harm (which she seems to have experienced anyway?). But then we have blunt-object rape to consider, if not the robbery part - though of course, if she's lying the robbery would likely be part of the lie.

Millwood wasn't raped, or robbed, as far as I know. Just stabbed repeatedly in the lower body and left for dead.

I somehow find it not unlikely that a gang of youthful thugs (local or otherwise) was running about, shaking down whores, perhaps on nights they thought the women might have been busy. I'm sure the same thing happens to this very day.

Why must we assume Emma Smith was lying? Could a gang not have attacked other women, too?

Hi Aus. I wrote a book and most or all of what I know is in it. It's called The Bank Holiday Murders: The True Story of the First Whitechapel Murders. It came out last February.

As for why Emma's on the list, it's because she's the first murder of the official Scotland Yard 'Whitechapel Victims' list. There are 11 murders in all on the list, but it wasn't presumed then and is not presumed now that all were by the same hand.

At this point I consider it likely that Horsnell/Smith/Tabram were related to the Ripper murders of Nichols, Chapman, et al. Millwood might be, but there are question marks. Same with Rose Mylett, where it's not 100% certain she was a murder victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ausgirl]

Hi Aus. I wrote a book and most or all of what I know is in it. It's called The Bank Holiday Murders: The True Story of the First Whitechapel Murders. It came out last February.

Yes, I know.. but Amazon doesn't take Paypal, more's the pity.

And I refuse to own credit cards, as they might give away the location of my well-provisioned bunker in the woods. If I did own one, I would be loath to use it on the internet.

[sdreid]

I think she made up the gang story because she was protecting someone from going to prison either because she knew him or his mother. That would make her similar to Margery Wren.

[Ausgirl]

It genuinely confuses me, that there's so much resistance to the idea she was actually attacked by a gang of youths.

JtR *nowhere* else, on any canonical victim, or any other 'possible' victim, used a blunt object to rape. If Emma was for some reason lying to protect someone (who had just very nearly killed her) I seriously doubt it was the Ripper.

I'm not sure how Emma being attacked multiple times goes toward proving she was attacked by the Ripper. In my opinion, it's a good indication it wasn't the Ripper.

If there was just one man brutalising (but not slaughtering) all of these women in that same little area, why would any of them lie to protect him? What would be the consequences of a man like that being imprisoned for his crimes, other than lack of future attacks?

[Tom_Wescott]

JtR *nowhere* else, on any canonical victim, or any other 'possible' victim, used a blunt object to rape.

That's because he graduated to sharp instruments.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, I know.. but Amazon doesn't take Paypal, more's the pity.

And I refuse to own credit cards, as they might give away the location of my well-provisioned bunker in the woods. If I did own one, I would be loath to use it on the internet.

Ebay takes paypal.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Dane_F]

If I am not mistaken (and I very well could be) there might have been hinted at evidence that some of the other earlier murders might have involved rape with a blunt object too or at the least something being inserted.

This topic makes me want to reread Tom's book. So many to read through and nowhere near enough time.