Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What Makes A Victim?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Holmes' Idiot Brother
    replied
    Originally posted by Tani View Post

    This makes sense, but what about random unknowns.

    For instance, Peter Sutcliffe was not suspected of having killed 5 or so women he had in fact killed, simply because they were not prostitutes.

    We can also presume Jack as pressed for time, out in the open. He may not always be able to do what he wants and we're looking for a pattern that may not be present or has been hidden/misinterpreted.

    I think Tabram was Ripper but she was stabbed, not ripped; however we know that in their infancy serial killers often have a period of working through what they want to do, changing weapons, tactic, MO etc.

    These are the kinds of things I'm wondering about; especially as some think Jack was also Torso Man, which I'm very unsure about.
    I'm afraid too much sand has fallen in the hourglass to accurately and effectively determine unknown victims of the Ripper. The best we can do is look at the modus operandi of the killer and look for similarities and patterns. But we also could be dealing with a copycat. I include Tabram as a Ripper victim as well, as she was a prostitute living in the exact same area, was found in a similar position as the others, and the extensive stab wounds indicate a frenzied attack and rage. It must also be noted that although violence against women was commonplace in the East End slums, murder of women was still relatively rare. And in those cases, the motives were robbery, gangs (Emma Smith), and domestic violence. Here we have a series of motiveless crimes, which was unknown to the Metropolitan Police, and they were virtually helpless in solving this type of crime. In the case of JTR and other psychopathic serial killers, the motive exists solely in the killer's mind. I'm very uninformed as to the details of the Torso Murderer; however, in Cleveland, Ohio in the 1930s there was a very similar serial killer operating in the Depression-era shanty towns and "Cody's Camps" of the day. This lunatic killed derelict men, mostly, though there was a female victim or two. He eluded capture, and even ruined the career of Eliot Ness, the former agent who had brought down Al Capone a few years before. Could the Victorian torso killer and JTR be one and the same? Certainly. Were they? Who knows. Happy hunting!

    Leave a comment:


  • Tani
    replied
    Originally posted by Holmes' Idiot Brother View Post

    First off, it would probably be a good idea to ignore McNaughten altogether; he didn't even work there at the time of the murders and was a desk jockey. His list of suspects is absurd, at best. Far better to listen to the varying opinions of the detectives on the ground, actually working the case. As to who is or is not a Ripper victim, I can only give my opinion: at least four, probably six (including Tabram), and a strong argument can be made against Stride being a victim. There are no shortage of suppositions as to the victims and the identity of the murderer. And this business fairly abounds in patterns and similarities. For example: all of the murders occurred between midnight and five A.M. on either the first weekend of the month or the last, or on a Bank Holiday, and all within the space of a few square acres. This tells us he was probably in regular employment. All of the victims were drabs of the lowest order (with the possible exception of Mary Jane Kelly, who is said to be young and attractive), all were alcoholics, all were killed with a sharp blade with a stroke to the throat after being choked unconscious or dead, and all were, to some extent or another, eviscerated in the foulest manner possible. What do these similarities tell us about the murderer? They tell us he was as much a creature of habit as he was of bad habits, and that is all they tell us.
    This makes sense, but what about random unknowns.

    For instance, Peter Sutcliffe was not suspected of having killed 5 or so women he had in fact killed, simply because they were not prostitutes.

    We can also presume Jack as pressed for time, out in the open. He may not always be able to do what he wants and we're looking for a pattern that may not be present or has been hidden/misinterpreted.

    I think Tabram was Ripper but she was stabbed, not ripped; however we know that in their infancy serial killers often have a period of working through what they want to do, changing weapons, tactic, MO etc.

    These are the kinds of things I'm wondering about; especially as some think Jack was also Torso Man, which I'm very unsure about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Holmes' Idiot Brother
    replied
    Originally posted by Tani View Post
    How do we determine who was a victim of Jack the Ripper?

    What criteria are we using?
    First off, it would probably be a good idea to ignore McNaughten altogether; he didn't even work there at the time of the murders and was a desk jockey. His list of suspects is absurd, at best. Far better to listen to the varying opinions of the detectives on the ground, actually working the case. As to who is or is not a Ripper victim, I can only give my opinion: at least four, probably six (including Tabram), and a strong argument can be made against Stride being a victim. There are no shortage of suppositions as to the victims and the identity of the murderer. And this business fairly abounds in patterns and similarities. For example: all of the murders occurred between midnight and five A.M. on either the first weekend of the month or the last, or on a Bank Holiday, and all within the space of a few square acres. This tells us he was probably in regular employment. All of the victims were drabs of the lowest order (with the possible exception of Mary Jane Kelly, who is said to be young and attractive), all were alcoholics, all were killed with a sharp blade with a stroke to the throat after being choked unconscious or dead, and all were, to some extent or another, eviscerated in the foulest manner possible. What do these similarities tell us about the murderer? They tell us he was as much a creature of habit as he was of bad habits, and that is all they tell us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geddy2112
    replied
    Originally posted by Tani View Post

    Variety is the lech of life
    Lech is also a rather nice beer in Poland, but we digress..

    Leave a comment:


  • Tani
    replied
    Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post

    ....... and be in two places at the same time. Swap from Torso to Jack then back to Torso again. He was an effin' legend mate.
    Variety is the lech of life

    Leave a comment:


  • Geddy2112
    replied
    Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

    But where did Lechmere find the time to kill all these women, go to work, have a family and write all the Ripper letters?
    ....... and be in two places at the same time. Swap from Torso to Jack then back to Torso again. He was an effin' legend mate.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Wheat
    replied
    Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post

    According to some it's every woman murdered in the East End between 1870 and 1895.. that is the only criteria then need.
    But where did Lechmere find the time to kill all these women, go to work, have a family and write all the Ripper letters?

    Leave a comment:


  • Geddy2112
    replied
    Originally posted by Tani View Post
    How do we determine who was a victim of Jack the Ripper?
    According to some it's every woman murdered in the East End between 1870 and 1895.. that is the only criteria then need.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    The press thought the Pinchin Street Torso might be a Ripper victim. The police and the doctors did not.
    And yet the Police all had different opinions, suspects and their own bias beliefs on who the Ripper could be.

    The Doctors all hax different levels of expertise and input; including the notoriously inept Dr Philips whose poor decision making stemmed from shallow-minded arrogance.

    The papers were also bias of course; The Star in particular being as trustworthy as a modern day tabloid like The Sun.


    So where does that leave us?


    No wonder the case was never solved


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    Let's also not forget the Pinchin Street Torso.

    At the time this murder was seen as a Ripper victim.
    The press thought the Pinchin Street Torso might be a Ripper victim. The police and the doctors did not.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Wheat
    replied
    Originally posted by Tani View Post
    How do we determine who was a victim of Jack the Ripper?

    What criteria are we using?
    We don't determine who was a victim of Jack the Ripper. A victim of Jack the Ripper was a victim of the serial killer Jack the Ripper. However it seems to me the C5 and possibly Tabram were victims of Jack the Ripper. And also as I believe Bury and Bury is in my opinion the strongest suspect by a mile to have been Jack then Ellen Bury too. The Torso victims were all likely to have been murdered by the Torso Killer and were not in all likelihood murdered by Jack. A substantially different M.O. suggests this.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Let's also not forget the Pinchin Street Torso.

    At the time this murder was seen as a Ripper victim.

    It remains the only murder that forms a hybrid between the Ripper murders and that of the Torso killer.

    This could be seen as one of the killer's simply taunting the other, or could imply it was the same man or men involved.

    There were signs of mutilation; quite unlike the earliest torso killings.

    There was an alleged chalking of the word "Lipski" on the arch of the wall


    The murder was declared before the body was found.

    The Ripper was also taunted in the press by an anonymous source shortly before the murder took place; the timing suggesting the Ripper was telling the world he was still there and responding to being taunted publicly


    The proximity to Back church Lane and the murder of Stride cannot be underestimated.


    ​​​​​To assume that the Ripper operated in Whitechapel alone is misleading and the inclusion of St George's in the East and the City of London are also important to consider.


    Lots more going on than just the generic Canonical 5



    RD


    ​​​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by Tani View Post
    How do we determine who was a victim of Jack the Ripper?

    What criteria are we using?
    That has been a question from the beginning. MecNaghton's views were anything but universal.

    * Abberline dismissed Kosminski and Druitt as suspects. He favored George Chapman, but said nobody knew for sure.
    * Littlechild favored Tumblety and appears to have dismissed all of McNaughton's suspects.
    * Reid thought there were 9 victims killed between 1888 and 1892. That appears to dismiss Kosminki and definitely dismissed Druitt. In 1912 he said nobody knew who the Ripper was, specifically dismissing all of McNaughton's suspects.
    * Smith said none of the police knew who the Ripper was and specifically dismissed Kosminski.
    * Arnold though there were only 4 victims.
    * Dew thought that Emma Smith and Martha Tabram were Ripper victims. He had no suspect.

    A modern signature analysis concludes 6 victims - C5 + Tabram.

    For me the criteria are:
    * Adult female victims.
    * Victims murdered by strangulation followed by throat cutting.
    ​* Mutilation by knife after the victim is dead.
    * Body posed - flat on back, legs spread, skirts raised.
    * Trophies taken - sometimes possessions, sometimes organs.

    So I see Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly as definites. Tabram is probable. Stride is possible. McKenzie is unlikely, but possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lewis C
    replied
    I would start with these questions:

    Where and when did the murder take place?

    Was the victim a woman?

    Was the woman either strangled or had her throat slashed?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Baron
    replied
    The most important criteria is if a certain victim doesn't rule one's favourite suspect out, then it is in.



    The Baron

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X