Chapman and Kelly's Left Arms

[caz]

Hi Caz
I am sure these women were used to living hand to mouth so what may seem desperate to us may not to a woman like kelly or even stride. and certainly they were not in as deperate a situation on their respective nights as where nichols, chapman and posibly eddowes. you can at least admit that, right?

Well up to a point, yes Abby. For example, I suppose Stride could have collected her green velvet and pawned or sold it to avoid sleeping rough that night, assuming she had no immediate plans to fall back on Kidney when heading to the club. But Kelly had nothing to give the rent man when he came to collect, so she was living under the threat of possible eviction at any time. I appreciate her younger age might have allowed her more complacency than the older victims. The young tend not to worry as much and imagine that something will "turn up". At the same time, someone with a roof over their head can feel more desperate under the threat of losing it than someone who is used to being on the streets and can fall no further.

any way, what does it really matter? Kelly and stride could easily have still ended up with the ripper even if they were not out solicitating, no?

Absolutely, Abby. It seems to matter more to Mike that they were not soliciting, but I really don't see the huge significance either way. Their killer(s) may not have known or given a damn in any case. If the ripper cared, he may just have assumed his victims were on the game whether they were or not.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Well I don't know the habits of either woman where men were concerned, but Kelly's 'place' was a tiny room with a bed taking up much of the space and she did invite Blotchy in. There is no evidence that he was a known associate of hers and Barnett had very recently left her to it, so who really knows either way?

I wrote the above in response to the question of how financially desperate the Whitechapel victims were when their killer(s) struck. I didn't even mention prostitution, and I readily admitted to not knowing why Kelly invited Blotchy into her bedroom, or whether she was hoping he might be able to help out with her rent arrears or next meal. And here is Mike Richards's response:

I guess you assume that street prostitutes sing for over an hour to every client they decide to bring into a rented room in their own name....not a hotel room or a lodging house room or a bordello room, their own room. One that there is no record of her ever bring clients into.

Yes, Mike, you 'guess', when you only needed to read my words with a bit of care to see I assumed nothing of the kind. Where do you pluck this stuff from?

Caz, you already have the evidence before you that Mary didnt take Blotchy into her room to service him, so why would you suggest it anyway? Its one of your more frustrating qualities...youd rather speculate wildly to support your own perceptions than follow the evidence where it leads.

But where did I suggest she did take Blotchy into her room to 'service' him, Mike? Once again, you are the one who is obsessed with the sexual act, not me. It's one of your more frustrating qualities and unaccountably it makes you see things in my posts that are not there.

So she invited him in and gave him a song, perhaps in return for a swig of ale from his pot and a fish supper he shared with her earlier, going by the evidence before us. That's not 'servicing' him, is it? But still going by the evidence before us, Cox didn't recognise Blotchy as a regular guest or acquaintance of Kelly's, did she? So we are both left in the dark to speculate 'wildly' about whether he had or hadn't met Kelly before that night, and how either of them hoped the night would end. For example, would she have invited him in just the same if Barnett had still been living there with her? I don't know - do you? The difference between us is that I see nothing wrong with exploring such avenues and looking at all the possibilites, while you seem to be the one narrowing your options until you have squeezed the life out of every last one.

Following the evidence where it leads is all very well when there is one clear path. But you can't tell me that applies in this case. If you honestly see only one path and one possible destination, I honestly think you must be kidding yourself.

Love,

Caz
X

[DRoy]

Kelly took the ginger-haired man with the pail of beer and a billycock hat to her room, then she asked Hutchinson for a loan of sixpence or maybe she asked Hutchinson for sixpence to go with her to her room, and then she took the well-dressed gent to her room. So it's fair to say she was soliciting that night.

Mark,

Cox only describes a man, not a client. We don't know who the man was but he could have been anybody. If Hutch is to be believed then yes there is another man going to her room but the same applies to him, we don't know who he was.

I don't think it's fair to say she was soliciting that night, I would say it is a possibility but not a probability.

Cheers
DRoy

[markmorey5]

Kelly took the ginger-haired man with the pail of beer and a billycock hat to her room, then she asked Hutchinson for a loan of sixpence or maybe she asked Hutchinson for sixpence to go with her to her room, and then she took the well-dressed gent to her room. So it's fair to say she was soliciting that night. It would be surprising if she wasn't, given Barnett couldn't give her money and she owed arrears in rent.

We know little about Stride's movements on the night of her murder. Like all of the other victims she had a long-standing drinking problem and used prostitution to make ends meet.

[Abby Normal]

Abby, you need to get out more...

so according to you:
once a prostitute-always a prostitute, and any interaction and behaviour with a man socially is obviously an act of prostitution?
really?

maybe you needs to stay in more....

[Abby Normal]

Well I don't know the habits of either woman where men were concerned, but Kelly's 'place' was a tiny room with a bed taking up much of the space and she did invite Blotchy in. There is no evidence that he was a known associate of hers and Barnett had very recently left her to it, so who really knows either way?

In any case, I didn't refer to desperate 'prostituting' as such; the fact is, the rent man was not coming the next morning to let Kelly off her rent, but to collect some, and she had not a farthing to give him - nor indeed a farthing towards Friday's breakfast, lunch, supper or booze. She may have asked Blotchy to lend her some money in return for her company and a song, and he may have promised her some. But she didn't end up with a bean, did she?

What would you call desperate, if you believe having no money at all as winter drew nearer was nothing for these women to fret about?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
I am sure these women were used to living hand to mouth so what may seem desperate to us may not to a woman like kelly or even stride. and certainly they were not in as deperate a situation on their respective nights as where nichols, chapman and posibly eddowes. you can at least admit that, right?

any way, what does it really matter? Kelly and stride could easily have still ended up with the ripper even if they were not out solicitating, no?

To me it just seems all evidence and circumstances considered, that kelly and stride were probably not out actively solicitating the night they were murdered, but unfortunately still wound up with the ripper.

however, i admit that they both could have been, sure.

[GUT]

The other thing to remember is that travel wasn't what t s today. If her family were in Ireland AND they heard about her murder they may not have been able to get to London in time for the funeral, IF they could afford the journey.

[GUT]

Exactly

[Wickerman]

There was also a story that Mary's father came looking for her and she avoided him.
If true, he must have been asking for her by the name she was using, how else could he expect to locate her? So he must have known her by the name Mary Kelly.

[GUT]

G'Day Mark

And welcome.

The latter would explain why none of her family came forward after the murder.

They might also not have associated the poor unfortunate dead girl, if they ever heard, with their family member.

[markmorey5]

There are reports of Kelly drinking with Elizabeth (we don't know surname but it was a common name), and being very drunk. Then the man with the pail of beer followed by singing. Later in the evening she was heard singing again. So I wrote it like this:

Joe left and Mary was alone, and she only had change in her pocket. She changed her clothes: black velvet bodice, her old burgundy velvet skirt and a red pelerine for warmth. She headed to The Ten Bells, went to the bar and bought a beer. Elizabeth shouted Mary another pint, and Mary shouted Elizabeth a pint as well. On an empty stomach the drinks hit Mary hard and she felt very woozy.
“What time do you reckon?” Mary asked Elizabeth in a slurred voice.
“Dunno,” Elizabeth said. “Near midnight I suppose.”
“I ought to get to work.”
Mary went outside on a cold, cold night and a man came to her. Shortish and stout with an overcoat and a billycock hat; ginger hair and moustache. He carried his own pail of beer.
“You got sixpence for my place?” Mary asked.
“Aye, I do.”
“Come with me then,” Mary said, leading the way along Dorset Street and into Millers Court. Mary opened the door just as Mary Cox passed by.
“Goodnight,” Mary Cox said.
“Goodnight; I’m going to sing,” Mary said.
Mary took the man into her room, warm with the fire burning low. She lit the candle, removed her boots and placed them by the fire before removing her clothes, folding them and placing them on the chair. All the time she sang A Violet from Mother’s Grave. She stopped singing and went to bed; the man joined her and when he finished he left. Mary was hungry and she had money. She went to her favourite window and bought a meal of fish and potatoes. She took it to her room and resumed singing. A Violet from Mother’s Grave again, Sweet Jane, Moonlight at Killarney, The Irish Fair.
It was time to earn more money. She headed outside on a cold, wet night and came across George Hutchinson in Flower and Dean Street.

After being turned down by Hutchinson she comes across the well-dressed gent.

Hutchinson mentioned sixpence so I went with that. The other, older women charged thruppence so sixpence for the younger Mary Kelly seemed about right for a knee trembler, and given it was a short stay in her room she only charged sixpence for that.

As regards Mary Kelly's back-story and all the research that has been done, I think that it was likely that she was Welsh as she said. Some said she had an accent and some said she had a speech impediment, which could have been her Welsh accent to the cockney ear. As regards the lack of records either part of her story was fabricated, she was a different age and researchers have been looking for wedding certificates in the wrong year or, most likely, she wasn't really named Mary Kelly. The latter would explain why none of her family came forward after the murder.

[Wickerman]

hi BW
They never said she took CLIENTs to her room, only described the detail of her taking men to her room, and the Aman story is Bs any way.
Nobody specifically said she was taking customers back to her room for prostitution.

Abby, you need to get out more...

[Michael W Richards]

Well I don't know the habits of either woman where men were concerned, but Kelly's 'place' was a tiny room with a bed taking up much of the space and she did invite Blotchy in. There is no evidence that he was a known associate of hers and Barnett had very recently left her to it, so who really knows either way?


X

I guess you assume that street prostitutes sing for over an hour to every client they decide to bring into a rented room in their own name....not a hotel room or a lodging house room or a bordello room, their own room. One that there is no record of her ever bring clients into.

Caz, you already have the evidence before you that Mary didnt take Blotchy into her room to service him, so why would you suggest it anyway? Its one of your more frustrating qualities...youd rather speculate wildly to support your own perceptions than follow the evidence where it leads.

Cheers

[caz]

Hi caz

Bringing a man back to your place with a pot of ale and singing to him for hours with a warm fire does not smack of desperate prostituting to me nor does, in strides case, meandering about with the same man (peaked cap man) for hours with a flower on your jacket and breath mints in your hand.

Yes the clues are there.

Well I don't know the habits of either woman where men were concerned, but Kelly's 'place' was a tiny room with a bed taking up much of the space and she did invite Blotchy in. There is no evidence that he was a known associate of hers and Barnett had very recently left her to it, so who really knows either way?

In any case, I didn't refer to desperate 'prostituting' as such; the fact is, the rent man was not coming the next morning to let Kelly off her rent, but to collect some, and she had not a farthing to give him - nor indeed a farthing towards Friday's breakfast, lunch, supper or booze. She may have asked Blotchy to lend her some money in return for her company and a song, and he may have promised her some. But she didn't end up with a bean, did she?

What would you call desperate, if you believe having no money at all as winter drew nearer was nothing for these women to fret about?

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Correct. The fact is that it was two witnesses, not one. Cox and Hutchinson. No other witness makes any comment as to where she took her clients, so the only witnesses who do pass comment on the matter say that she did take clients to her room. Sorry, Michael. It's one thing to discount the evidence of witnesses because you think they are mistaken or lying, but another thing entirely to pretend that they and their evidence don't exist.

Kelly was (forgive the expression) a cut above. She was young. She had a room. If she took clients to her room (as the evidence suggests that she did) she could (and surely did?) charge them more for the privilege.

hi BW
They never said she took CLIENTs to her room, only described the detail of her taking men to her room, and the Aman story is Bs any way.
Nobody specifically said she was taking customers back to her room for prostitution.