The Increasing Attractivness of the Victims

[Slimsid2000]

Here is something I have noticed: each time the next victim is slightly more attractive (or slightly less ugly if you prefer) than the previous one.

If we accept the notion of the C5 (or even include Martha Tabern) a case could be made that starting with Martha and ending with Mary JTR seemed to go for a more attractive woman each time.

In corrolation with this are a couple of other trends:

1) The level of mutilation (if we accept he was interupted with Long Liz) increased on each occasion;

2) The time between each attack also increased.

The culmination of all three of these trends was Mary Kelly on 9th November. I don't know what relevence any of this has, as I cannot get inside the head of a psychopathic serial killer but in Jack's mind was there some relevence?

Discuss.

[sdreid]

Hi Slim,

I'd generally agree with you except, to me at least, Nichols looks better than Chapman. Regarding Kelly, it would just be an assumption.

Another "in general" trend is that the murder sites seemed to move from open to increasingly enclosed locations. The first was an open street, the last was inside and the middle three were confined areas in some way. Like I said, in general.

[Celesta]

Hi All,

I hadn't really thought about this aspect. I have noticed that in some pictures, those which are a little clearer, you can see a little of the underlying facial structure and that she might have been, at least at some point, an attractive person. I don't know how much the killer could have seen of the women's faces in the night, but who knows.


I'm glad you said that about the tendency towards a more enclosed site, Stan, because I had been thinking the same.

Best,

Celesta

[perrymason]

Here is something I have noticed: each time the next victim is slightly more attractive (or slightly less ugly if you prefer) than the previous one.

If we accept the notion of the C5 (or even include Martha Tabern) a case could be made that starting with Martha and ending with Mary JTR seemed to go for a more attractive woman each time.

In corrolation with this are a couple of other trends:

1) The level of mutilation (if we accept he was interupted with Long Liz) increased on each occasion;

2) The time between each attack also increased.

The culmination of all three of these trends was Mary Kelly on 9th November. I don't know what relevence any of this has, as I cannot get inside the head of a psychopathic serial killer but in Jack's mind was there some relevence?

Discuss.

Hi SS,

1. The single wound on Liz Stride was made no later than 12:56am by the onsite medical expert at 1:16am...using a watch. There is then no credible argument that he was interrupted by Diemshutz/shitz at 1:00am. The amount of injuries increased excluding Liz, however the abdominal focus so prevalent in the first two, and in part, the 4th, seems to disappear altogether.

2. In fact the killers schedule remained consistent. He killed victims within a 10 day window, starting the last two days of the month, and never after the 9th. You have the end of August, the beginning of September, the end of September, and then the beginning of November. Since he only killed once in August supposedly, that means he doesnt have to kill at both ends of a month. So..the only real gap is October. If you were to add Martha, then you have a consistent kill pattern in terms of dates, and reasons to see the "odd" one out as perhaps not by the same man.

I think in terms of attractiveness, with all due respect, the first 4 women were plain, perhaps even frumpy looking, and all were over 40 years old. The last is approx 26, was said to be attractive, and was killed indoors, undressed.

What you have is 4 women who are similar physically, and one who isnt.

Best Regards.

[Christine]

Well, it's hard to judge, because we are relying on limited information (drawings, a few photos taken under extreme conditions) and of course we don't know what Jack considered to be attractive. Plump ladies were more popular then, for example. So I don't see a real obvious progression in the first four of the C5.

I would say that the main difference with Kelly is that she was young and attractive enough to keep a room and work indoors, and hence got a substantially higher price. After killing Stride the danger of killing at random outdoor locations would have been driven home to him, and after killing Eddowes his need to mutilate the victims more and more would have forced him to change his MO. Plus there was the fact that every random citizen in London was on the lookout for him.

So it may have just been his need to find a woman willing to take him back to her room.

Of course if you don't believe Stride was a ripper victim this argument is weakened some.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=perrymason;18484]Hi SS,

1. The single wound on Liz Stride was made no later than 12:56am by the onsite medical expert at 1:16am...using a watch. There is then no credible argument that he was interrupted by Diemshutz/shitz at 1:00am. The amount of injuries increased excluding Liz, however the abdominal focus so prevalent in the first two, and in part, the 4th, seems to disappear altogether.

Hi Michael,

You constantly site those times as though they came out of the mouth of God Himself when in fact they are simply estimates and since they were given by a doctor in 1888 they are more in the realm of guesstimates. They can not be the basis for a rock solid theory.

c.d.

[paul emmett]

Hello, all.

While I certianly agree with Christine that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, IF there is a progression in both the looks AND the mutilations as Slimsid suggests, perhaps there is a causal relation between the two. Jack is punishing them for being "good" looking: the more they attract him, the more he mutilates them. This culminates, of course, with the facial mutilations of the last two victims.

[Cap'n Jack]

He was killing his mother.
And then decided to get a girl friend.
Because his mother was dead.

[George Hutchinson]

Remember that we are viewing this subjectively and through the eyes of a gap of 120 years. We are also colouring possibilities with received and assumed information, rather than knowing anything for certain. The current accepted norm of what makes a woman attractive is not to be confused with the criteria of 1888. It happens so often on this site - people sometimes don't consider that our opinions are based on 21st Century rationale and not with the mentality of the LVP.

PHILIP

[paul emmett]

The current accepted norm of what makes a woman attractive is not to be confused with the criteria of 1888.

Phillip,

Of course. That's why I started my last post be saying that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Certianly subjectivity--individuals as well as eras--must play a role here. I might even question your notion of "current accepted norm." Still, I would imagine there are some constants, and there are also some common "assumptions," like bigger used to be better. Also there must be studies of 1800's "aesthetics," which might be interesting.

Cap'n,

What happens after he disposes of the girlfriends?

[Sam Flynn]

I find it hard to believe that the Ripper, sharpened knife in pocket (or wherever he stashed it), would let pass an opportunity to kill on the grounds of aesthetics. Vice-ridden though the area may have (purportedly) been, a large percentage of potential victims would have been off the streets long before the time at which most of Jack's victims were killed.

It's not as if there was a constant stream of women to suit all tastes on offer throughout the night, and by time we reach the hours during which Jack "worked", I daresay the fare on offer would primarily have been of the more degraded and/or desperate variety. In line with that, perhaps it's significant that at least 3 of the "C5" were women who had been turfed out of their accommodation in the small hours, with no obvious place to go.

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
We really are clutching at straws in suggesting that he targeted his victims in relation to their attractiveness.
We can suggest all kind of scenerios with these crimes, but the fact is , it seems likely that the last JTR job was at millers court, and no other murder took place.
Our investigations must involve research in all avenues, that lead of from that.
Regards Richard.

[sdreid]

AP has it. Jack was Emma Smith's illegitimate son.

[Cap'n Jack]

That, Paul, is when you come to the worm in the bud.

[perrymason]

[QUOTE=c.d.;18493]

Hi SS,

1. The single wound on Liz Stride was made no later than 12:56am by the onsite medical expert at 1:16am...using a watch. There is then no credible argument that he was interrupted by Diemshutz/shitz at 1:00am. The amount of injuries increased excluding Liz, however the abdominal focus so prevalent in the first two, and in part, the 4th, seems to disappear altogether.

Hi Michael,

You constantly site those times as though they came out of the mouth of God Himself when in fact they are simply estimates and since they were given by a doctor in 1888 they are more in the realm of guesstimates. They can not be the basis for a rock solid theory.

c.d.

cd, no matter whether you like how I say something or not, the estimate of the cut is the latest of the two, and was made 20 minutes after the event happened. He was certainly able to be accurate within that time frame, and I used the last possible second of that estimate to prevent anyone from saying Im taking it too literally. Its a fact that with his estimate she might have been cut immediately after the altercation seen by Schwartz, at 12:46....which makes perfect sense. The point being, if Dr Blackwell was a good enough doctor to be asked to provide TOD, and able to read his watch and calculate times, he was certainly able to be accurate within 10 minutes no more than 30 minutes after the event.

You keep giving this inflexibility speech to me...I think the real issue is that you are not willing to accept things cd....like a top medical man's opinion, and that he could easily pin down an approximate time of death, if it was no more than 30 minutes earlier from when he makes his prediction. You do have to choose eventually, if your studying to get anywhere bud....some statements are from credible sources, some aren't, some credible sources over extend their abilities and offer opinions they are not qualified to make. Some nobodies offer the most honest testimony. Some lie.

In the case on Elizabeth Stride, Blackwell was well within his range of ability to assess when Elizabeth was cut...within a 10 minute window for variables....and the latest time....is 4 minutes before Mr D arrives...by his own testimony. There is no interruption of Liz Strides killer on record, nor is it likely he stood in place for at least 4 minutes doing nothing.

Unfortunate for the Canonites...because what happened to her is all that was going to happen.


Off topic of course.... Sorry.

Cheers.