Money

[Abby Normal]

I am afraid we are going to have to disagree on this one Abby.

Swanson - Schwatrz man may not need be the murderer, Schwartz man may have left her where she was then accosted by another man.

The Star - The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted [ Schwartz ]

New York Times - The daring character of the murders is evident from the fact that two people at least saw a man and the woman together in the Berner-street gateway, and one saw him throw her down. He went away and left her there, but it was half an hour before it was known that she had been murdered.

Schwartz saw BS man pull Liz away from the entrance to the club, not into it. And would Liz then follow someone into the passageway who had just assaulted her ? I would say probably not.

Is BS mans actions consistent with Jack's ? I would have to say no.

Is Liz being a victim of Jack's consistent with his victimology, method of kill etc ? On the balance of probability I would say yes.

Regards Darryl

Hi DK

I am afraid we are going to have to disagree on this one Abby.

no problemo

Swanson - Schwatrz man may not need be the murderer, Schwartz man may have left her where she was then accosted by another man.

Schwartz description matches all the other witness descriptions that night including lawende and company-peaked cap and all. And Many experienced policeman will tell you, including I beleive some who post here, that the chances that she was assaulted by two different men, unrelated incidents, one right after each other, are slim to nil. And besides, even if the unlikely event that BS man wasnt her killer, there is also the possibility of pipeman, so again, no need for phantom rippers.

The Star - The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted [ Schwartz ]

They were talking about the arrested man, not Schwartz.

New York Times - The daring character of the murders is evident from the fact that two people at least saw a man and the woman together in the Berner-street gateway, and one saw him throw her down. He went away and left her there, but it was half an hour before it was known that she had been murdered.

Again evidence of pipeman as a possibility, and the rest dosnt support your argument at all, only that a little time passed before her body was discovered.

Schwartz saw BS man pull Liz away from the entrance to the club, not into it. And would Liz then follow someone into the passageway who had just assaulted her ? I would say probably not.

probably not, but she might have. Or she ran into the yard toward perceived help,and he followed her in. or he actually cut her throat in the street, fled and she stumbles into the yard and then dies. There are a number of scenarios that are possible with BS man as the killer.

Is BS mans actions consistent with Jack's ? I would have to say no.

People arent robots, nor predictable. Especially serial killers I would say. Depending on the circs, who knows?

Is Liz being a victim of Jack's consistent with his victimology, method of kill etc ? On the balance of probability I would say yes.

well at least we agree on that! : )

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi DK


no problemo



Schwartz description matches all the other witness descriptions that night including lawende and company-peaked cap and all. And Many experienced policeman will tell you, including I beleive some who post here, that the chances that she was assaulted by two different men, unrelated incidents, one right after each other, are slim to nil. And besides, even if the unlikely event that BS man wasnt her killer, there is also the possibility of pipeman, so again, no need for phantom rippers.




They were talking about the arrested man, not Schwartz.




Again evidence of pipeman as a possibility, and the rest dosnt support your argument at all, only that a little time passed before her body was discovered.




probably not, but she might have. Or she ran into the yard toward perceived help,and he followed her in. or he actually cut her throat in the street, fled and she stumbles into the yard and then dies. There are a number of scenarios that are possible with BS man as the killer.



People arent robots, nor predictable. Especially serial killers I would say. Depending on the circs, who knows?


well at least we agree on that! : )

Hi Abby

1- I honestly feel that two much emphasis is placed on a peaked cap . It seemed to be standard wear for Victorian men, plus I would expect Jack to try and conceal some of his face with some kind of headgear maybe, perhaps pulled down to his eyes.

2- But the very next day in The Star - In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story.

3- I would say half an hour is quite a bit of time

4- If Liz did run into the yard she would probably have screamed or shouted for help [ in my opinion ], but no one heard a thing . I very much doubt he cut liz's throat in the street the blood evidence doesn't show this at all.

5- Fair point Abby , I just don't see Liz being attacked by Jack on a busy street with singing and dancing from people in the building overlooking said spot


Regards Darryl

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

1- I honestly feel that two much emphasis is placed on a peaked cap . It seemed to be standard wear for Victorian men, plus I would expect Jack to try and conceal some of his face with some kind of headgear maybe, perhaps pulled down to his eyes.

2- But the very next day in The Star - In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story.

3- I would say half an hour is quite a bit of time

4- If Liz did run into the yard she would probably have screamed or shouted for help [ in my opinion ], but no one heard a thing . I very much doubt he cut liz's throat in the street the blood evidence doesn't show this at all.

5- Fair point Abby , I just don't see Liz being attacked by Jack on a busy street with singing and dancing from people in the building overlooking said spot


Regards Darryl

Hi DK
Well Abberline sure placed emphasis on the peaked cap, and he would know. Newspaper probably got it mixed up, and or its ambiguous anyway-- there is absolutely no reason to doubt schwartz story and the police found him credible. There were men singing, they may not have heard her-even schwartz said she screamed but not very loudly and the ripper was attacking victims in all sorts of risky places like hanbury street backyard. Besides he may have just lost his temper with her and cut her throat just for spite/out of anger, when she wouldnt go with him into a dark alley.
Trust me DK, BS man was strides killer and the ripper.

[c.d.]

I am not exactly sure what is meant by a "phantom ripper." Isn't it generally accepted by most of those who post here that the rest of the C5 and possibly Tabram and others were killed by a phantom ripper? So why is that so hard to accept in the Stride murder?

And with all due respect to the opinion of experienced policemen, I should think the opinion of Swanson should trump them all. Unlike them, he was alive at the time, familiar with the streets of Whitechapel, had all of the evidence available to him and could discuss it with others at Scotland Yard. He allowed for the possibility of a killer other than the B.S. man. I think his opinion should be respected.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I am not exactly sure what is meant by a "phantom ripper." Isn't it generally accepted by most of those who post here that the rest of the C5 and possibly Tabram and others were killed by a phantom ripper? So why is that so hard to accept in the Stride murder?

And with all due respect to the opinion of experienced policemen, I should think the opinion of Swanson should trump them all. Unlike them, he was alive at the time, familiar with the streets of Whitechapel, had all of the evidence available to him and could discuss it with others at Scotland Yard. He allowed for the possibility of a killer other than the B.S. man. I think his opinion should be respected.

c.d.

Hi CD
by phantom ripper- I mean the hypotheical "someone else" who no witness saw and there is no evidence for, as opposed to named suspects and nick named suspects(who witnesses saw and described) like BS man, sailor man, the bethnal green botherer etc. sorry if I was unclear.

[c.d.]

Hi CD
by phantom ripper- I mean the hypotheical "someone else" who no witness saw and there is no evidence for, as opposed to named suspects and nick named suspects(who witnesses saw and described) like BS man, sailor man, the bethnal green botherer etc. sorry if I was unclear.

Right, I understand that Abby but my point was that this so called "phantom ripper" is capable of murder. So a phantom ripper could have killed Stride. It just means he wasn't seen at the time.

c.d.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

2- But the very next day in The Star - In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story.

Hi Darryl,

That's a bit of selective quoting there.

"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

I'm inclined to believe 'the man' is the prisoner, but others think it refers to Schwartz's statement not being wholly believed, depends on how you read it I guess.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Darryl,

That's a bit of selective quoting there.

"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

I'm inclined to believe 'the man' is the prisoner, but others think it refers to Schwartz's statement not being wholly believed, depends on how you read it I guess.

Given the wording, I think that's the most likely meaning. Otherwise it would have been phrased "The truth of the Hungarian's statement ...", the man refers back to the "...one man answering..." part, and so refers to the prisoner, as you suggest. What it implies, therefore, is that the prisoner, while not charged, is still seen as under some suspicion (rightly or wrongly is immaterial, it's the fact it doesn't really cast doubt upon Schwartz's statement that is key for us).

- Jeff

[Darryl Kenyon]

But why would The Star say that they doubted his story ? In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story . I get what you are saying regarding the Oct 1 article , but Oct 2 ? There is no mention of anyone else but Schwartz and they implicitly say the Lemen st police doubted the truth of the story. Whose story ? It must be Schwartz

Regards Darryl

[Losmandris]

I think we need to come up with a Ripperologist version of Godwin's Law. Whereby all threads eventually end up discussing Berner street!

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

But why would The Star say that they doubted his story ? In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story . I get what you are saying regarding the Oct 1 article , but Oct 2 ? There is no mention of anyone else but Schwartz and they implicitly say the Lemen st police doubted the truth of the story. Whose story ? It must be Schwartz

Regards Darryl

I see your point. It's the same sentences, just in a different order, clear as mud.

Perhaps a clarification of sorts? Then there's the debate over whether Leman St were at odds with Scotland Yard.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I think we need to come up with a Ripperologist version of Godwin's Law. Whereby all threads eventually end up discussing Berner street!

It's either that or Chapman's TOD.

[Losmandris]

It's either that or Chapman's TOD.

Ha. True!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Are these possibilities too far out?

I'd say there's a decent chance money didn't change hands.

'Look at Catherine Eddowes and the supposed timings. In the event money had changed hands, who knows where Catherine would have put that money, with various garments on; and how long it would have taken the WM to find that money in the dark. Supposedly the WM was able to get his victim into the right position, kill, mutilate, cut a piece of the apron to take with him - all in a matter of 8 or 9 minutes - and escape without being seen in the immediate area while policemen were running 'round. Add in scrambling around for a few bob in the dark and you're reducing this time further.

At the point when money was to be handed over, maybe the WM put his hands into his pockets, produced nothing; the victims held their hands out to receive that money but it was dark and so they couldn't see what was in his hands. With the victims' hands hanging down and as far as possible away from their throats, that would have given the WM the best possible chance of getting to their throats before they could put their hands up to prevent it and scream. 'Quite possible.

[JeffHamm]

But why would The Star say that they doubted his story ? In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story . I get what you are saying regarding the Oct 1 article , but Oct 2 ? There is no mention of anyone else but Schwartz and they implicitly say the Lemen st police doubted the truth of the story. Whose story ? It must be Schwartz

Regards Darryl

Hi Darryl,

Comparing the story from the 1st and the 2nd, where the one on the 1st mentions the prisoner (and the wording suggests the doubt is with regards to the prisoner's statement), might it be that the story on the 2nd is a rehash of the original story, but edited out mentioning of the prisoner for some reason (it seems like an odd detail to omit, but the flow of the two stories is the same just with the information about the suspect removed). There's something odd about these two articles, and press reports go through so many edits, for various reasons (just to fit it into the column), that it might be worth considering something like that. Given the newsworthiness of a potential suspect being interviewed by the police, I admit I find it hard to believe that detail would get removed, but just because I find something hard to believe doesn't mean it couldn't happen (so we need to ponder it at least).

It is also possible that the original story, that included a prisoner/suspect, was the one in error and, as you suggest, the doubt was in regards to Schwartz. That might even fit things a bit better as we know Anderson doubted Schwartz's story with regards to things like whom Lipski was shouted at, and the relationship between Pipeman and B.S. While Schwartz thought they were a team, Andersen appears more inclined to think Pipeman was a bystander and that Lipski was shouted at Schwartz. So we know the police had doubts about Schwartz's story on those aspects. If the press got wind that the police didn't believe everything Schwartz said, but did not have the details about the exact nature of those doubts, then it could appear as in the version you've presented (the one without the prisoner). Of course, if there had been someone brought in who was thought might be either Pipeman or B.S., and the police weren't entirely satisfied with the person's account of themselves, then the other version could be the more appropriate one.

Sadly, we're left with so many "if's" because in the end it is just not clear what was meant given that on face value the two reports seem to cast doubt on different people.

- Jeff