The increasing acceptance of Martha Tabram...

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mr Lucky

As Lynn suggests you'd probably need someone pretty powerful...powerful enough, perhaps, to drive a relatively small bladed knife clean through the breastbone, leading a doctor to believe that a longer bladed knife had in fact been used?

All the best

Dave

Hi Cog

Sorry, what I was trying to demonstrate is that the wound in Nichols throat isn't a 'precise slice' at all, and we can see that just from the description of the knife. the only slice type wounds on Nichols are the ones on her stomach lining, which are shallow and don't even penetrate through the stomach lining itself, as to be expected with a knife that is only moderately sharp.

The rest of the cuts on Nichols abdomen are 'caused by a knife, which had been used violently and been used downwards.'

A knife used downwards, sound like stabs to me, a bit like Tabram?

[Supe]

Dave and Lynn,

Your faith in the forensic skills of Rees Llewellyn is certainly heartening for any remaining descendents, but might just be somewhat misplaced.

Don.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Cog

Here's a puzzle for you...

The longer of the two wounds in Nichols neck was 8 inch long, so the question is how do you get a 'precise slice' like that with a knife that was in Dr Llewellyn words 'not an exceptionally long-bladed weapon.' and was only 'moderately sharp'.

Hi Mr Lucky

As Lynn suggests you'd probably need someone pretty powerful...powerful enough, perhaps, to drive a relatively small bladed knife clean through the breastbone, leading a doctor to believe that a longer bladed knife had in fact been used?

All the best

Dave

[bolo]

Hi Lynn,

what I meant to say is that the C5 murders took place either early or late in the month and Martha's death in the early hours of August 7th fits to the pattern.

Regards,

Boris

[lynn cates]

I got rhythm.

Hello Boris.

One thought here.

"The murder took place early August which fits to the "rhythm" of the other ones."

Rhythm?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

power

Hello Lucky. Thanks.

"Is powerful the same as strong, then yes I agree, shifting boxes for Pickford's probably?"

Or manhandling rather large hogs. (heh-heh)

"An 8 inch long wound in the throat, with a shortish bladed knife only moderately sharp? All the way down to the vertebra, too? While she was lying on the ground?'

Absolutely. And if we take this seriously--as I think we should--it eliminates many a poor suspect. Put another way, "Only the powerful need apply."

Cheers.
LC

[bolo]

Hi all,

the possible switch from stabbing to throat cutting is one of the questions that I find interesting to ponder on in case of Martha and Polly. Is it really that big of a jump to change from a comparably slow and thus dangerous way of killing someone to a method that is as old as the invention of the knife, pretty reliable and much quicker? I don't really think so but of course I'm open for other opinions on the matter.

There are a few similarities between the Tabram case and the following C5 murders (some are a bit speculative):

- Even though Martha got killed in the staircase of a tenement building, no one saw or heard anything.

- According to Dr Killeen, the breasts, belly and private parts were the main targets.

- Abberline thought of her as a Ripper victim.

- Martha most probably led her killer to the first-floor landing of George Yard Building.

- The murder took place early August which fits to the "rhythm" of the other ones.

Of course there are just as many arguments against Martha as a Ripper victim, that's why I'm still not sure where to put her.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Boris

[Phil H]

In short I'm not sure Sir Melville can be right...

I'm not here to defend MM, but to answer your question:

...and if there is a learning curve, (necessarily a steep one because of the paucity of cases), where (apart from Tabram) is it?

The previous attacks could be there in the record but we are not perceiving them as such.

Alternatively, "Jack" came from elsewhere OR as Odell hypothesised in the 60s, had training in a different sphere - butchery, as a Shochet (Odell's choice); as a barber surgeon.

I short, "Jack does not need to have been the killer of Tabram, nor is Tabram required to fill in some mythical "hole" in his story.

Phil

[Mr Lucky]

"The longer of the two wounds in Nichols neck was 8 inch long, so the question is how do you get a 'precise slice' like that with a knife that was in Dr Llewellyn words 'not an exceptionally long-bladed weapon.' and was only 'moderately sharp'."

The assassin would need to be quite powerful.

Hi Lynn

Is powerful the same as strong, then yes I agree, shifting boxes for Pickford's probably ? but, leaving that aside.-

An 8 inch long wound in the throat, with a shortish bladed knife only moderately sharp? All the way down to the vertebra, too? While she was lying on the ground?

I think how the wounds on Nichols throat were done, are a lot more like Tabrams than everyone else I suppose.

I think Llewellyn gives us another clue when he says it's 'a pointed weapon with a stout back'

[lynn cates]

powerful

Hello Lucky.

"The longer of the two wounds in Nichols neck was 8 inch long, so the question is how do you get a 'precise slice' like that with a knife that was in Dr Llewellyn words 'not an exceptionally long-bladed weapon.' and was only 'moderately sharp'."

The assassin would need to be quite powerful.

Cheers.
LC

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Cog

Here's a puzzle for you...

The longer of the two wounds in Nichols neck was 8 inch long, so the question is how do you get a 'precise slice' like that with a knife that was in Dr Llewellyn words 'not an exceptionally long-bladed weapon.' and was only 'moderately sharp'.

Best wishes

[Cogidubnus]

Dave,

which doesn't preclude this being the first in a series with a slightly different M.O.

With all due respect, it is a very different modus operandi. Tabram seems to have been a random, likely frenzied, multiple stabbing of neck and torso whereas the murder of Polly was accomplished with two precise slices to her neck in a quite professional manner. That the technique was learned in a scant three weeks rather stretches probability.

Don.

Hi Don

I hate to disagree with you but it might be that part of his technique worked, and part didn't...

He picks up a woman soliciting, and allows her to select an unwitnessed venue (somewhere she's pretty sure they won't be deserved)...He gets half the killing method right - he gets her down (strangulation?) to use the knife but alas his "stabbing" method, dictated by his choice of knife, proves both inefficient and unstimulating...so next time he simply uses a larger blade, which allows "slicing/ripping" and the subsequent refinements of his "art"...

Put another way, let's turn your statement on it's head Don;

the murder of Polly was accomplished with two precise slices to her neck in a quite professional manner. That the technique was learned in a scant three weeks rather stretches probability.

Sir Melville posits that Nicholls was the first...that Jack parachuted himself in, cold, with an almost perfected technique...I'm not sure that's realistic...So where and when was it learned or developed? We know that killings of this type are very rare...where is the evidence he learned it/refined it elsewhere? Where lies the more gradual progression?

In short I'm not sure Sir Melville can be right...and if there is a learning curve, (necessarily a steep one because of the paucity of cases), where (apart from Tabram) is it?

All the best

Dave

[sdreid]

My acceptance of Tabram as a Ripper victim has decreased not increased.

[Supe]

Dave,

which doesn't preclude this being the first in a series with a slightly different M.O.

With all due respect, it is a very different modus operandi. Tabram seems to have been a random, likely frenzied, multiple stabbing of neck and torso whereas the murder of Polly was accomplished with two precise slices to her neck in a quite professional manner. That the technique was learned in a scant three weeks rather stretches probability.

Don.

[Cogidubnus]

Personally I think Ginger's is a good point...which doesn't preclude this being the first in a series with a slightly different M.O.

All the best

Dave