Police Patrols Timings

[JeffHamm]

Thanks Jeff, I get your drift.

My surprise is that it doesn't seem certain whether the organs were removed at the time or later. Wouldn't it be on record what was missing as soon as the bodies were examined medically ?

Hi Dickere,

Given we were not there, and given much of the records and files were lost, and given procedures of 1888 were of a different standard then today, some will use that to suggest anything they fancy. However, in my experience, very few entertain the suggestion that JtR did not take the missing organs. But, to form your own opinion, read through old threads and you'll come across that and other topics useful to go over. The discussions can get heated, to day the least, but read what's out there and draw your own conclusions.

- Jeff

[Dickere]

Anything is debatable - even the value of a debate is debatable. There will always be someone who sees things differently, whether or not you agree with them is up to you. Just take care to differentiate between debating with the unconvinced and debating with the unconvincable.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I get your drift.

My surprise is that it doesn't seem certain whether the organs were removed at the time or later. Wouldn't it be on record what was missing as soon as the bodies were examined medically ?

[JeffHamm]

Ok thanks, I have heard mentions of that. I'm surprised that something as fundamental as that is debatable though.

Anything is debatable - even the value of a debate is debatable. There will always be someone who sees things differently, whether or not you agree with them is up to you. Just take care to differentiate between debating with the unconvinced and debating with the unconvincable.

- Jeff

[Dickere]

Hi Dickere,

Trevor has a theory that JtR didn't take organs from any of the crime scenes, but rather they were stolen from the different mortuaries. It's not a widely held belief, but one Trevor defends at every opportunity. You can find discussions on this in many threads.

- Jeff

Ok thanks, I have heard mentions of that. I'm surprised that something as fundamental as that is debatable though.

[Wickerman]

But where did he appear from at that moment ? Presumably there wasn't a queue, so wouldn't he also have had knowledge of the beat times to be there at just the right moment ?

The belief is the killer picked up Eddowes somewhere close by and she led him to Mitre Sq. Alternately, he could have taken her there, we have no evidence one way or the other. There is however an uncorroborated opinion that some City police constables recognised her as someone who worked the streets in that area.
So we don't think he jumped out of the shadows to attack his victims.

[JeffHamm]

Sorry, what didn't happen ?

Hi Dickere,

Trevor has a theory that JtR didn't take organs from any of the crime scenes, but rather they were stolen from the different mortuaries. It's not a widely held belief, but one Trevor defends at every opportunity. You can find discussions on this in many threads.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

And to be able to remove them in almost total darkness that person would have to have expert knowledge in how to first find them and then have the expert knowledge to be able to remove them in the way described?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

how manywould have had that knowledge and skill in 1888 to be able to carry that out in almost total darkness?

Given Mitre Square is described as the least lit murder location, and that Dr. S testifies there was still enough light for JtR to do what he did, it becomes irrelevant to wonder how many people could do it under different conditions ... Meaning describing it as "almost total darkness" describes a situation nobody has to explain because it does not accurately describe the events to be explained.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Organs are removed with the knife, they are found by touch. An abdomen is not empty like those anatomical models.

And to be able to remove them in almost total darkness that person would have to have expert knowledge in how to first find them and then have the expert knowledge to be able to remove them in the way described?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

how manywould have had that knowledge and skill in 1888 to be able to carry that out in almost total darkness?

[Dickere]

No, his victims led him to where they felt the most comfortable, they knew the area better than him (or any customer).
Prostitutes didn't need light to carry out their function.



Removing organs is done mostly by feel anyway, I'm talking about the emergency room. The abdomen is full of either organs or blood, a doctor needs to know where to feel and what each organ feels like.

But where did he appear from at that moment ? Presumably there wasn't a queue, so wouldn't he also have had knowledge of the beat times to be there at just the right moment ?

[Dickere]

But to find and remove the organs by touch alone would need a great deal of anatomical knowledge in first being able to locate them, and then to be able to take hold of them, and then remove them as has been described in such a short time frame.

It didnt happen

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Sorry, what didn't happen ?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Dickere,

If JtR were local, which there are good arguments made to suggest that, it would be unsurprising if he was aware of some basic aspects concerning police beats. Most beats were set to require about 15 minutes to complete, some were a bit shorter (PC Watkin's, for example, had a beat that required him between 12 and 14 minutes to complete), and others were longer (PC Neil, from Polly Nichols' case, had a beat that required about 30 minutes to complete). The direction (i.e. clockwise vs counterclockwise) was changed every so often, and beats were occasionally "redrawn", as the police did not want criminals scouting some building to get too familiar with things. So, it's unlikely that JtR would have specific knowledge of any of the beats associated with the crimes, but it would be expected he had a general idea of how long beats in general took to complete.

The victims would likewise know of locations to conduct trade where they were unlikely to be disturbed for the amount of time required to conduct business. For some of the crimes we have pretty good information about the beats some of the police covered, and can estimate their positions as they completed them. That allows us to identify time windows for when the victims could arrive at the crime scene without having been seen to do so by the patrolling officer. We can also work out estimates of when JtR would have had to leave the scene to avoid being spotted when the officer returns. While these sorts of reconstructions will, of course, not be perfect recreations of the actual events, they do provide information to work with. Some interesting things have emerged, such as the Church Passage Couple (associated with the Eddowes case), are last seen in a location that would have provided them the opportunity to have seen PC Watkin's as he patrolled Mitre Square on his round prior to his finding Eddowes. And while we do not know if the Church Passage Couple was indeed Eddowes and JtR, it is worth considering that those two people are in a location that would make it possible for them to have seen PC Watkins patrol the area, which coupled with the above general knowledge, would lead to them making the assumption the square will be unvisited for about 15 minutes. That turns out to have been incorrect, though, as PC Watkin's beat was a shorter one, and also PC Harvey would patrol Church Passage itself (though his beat doesn't enter Mitre Square, it did come right up to it). So, like I say, that sort of thing doesn't prove the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, but what it does is tell us that the CPC couple had the opportunity to enter the square as PC Watkin's left it, which maximizes the amount of time available for the crime. In the Eddowes case, that's important to know because the timing is so tight making it hard to understand how JtR could murder and mutilate within that time window. If he had all of the time available, then it becomes less difficult to understand - it's still not a lot of time, but it is enough.

- Jeff

Great post Jeff
Regards Darryl

[JeffHamm]

Hi all
Is it fair to suggest that the killer must have had knowledge of the timings of the police on the beat ? Either that or he got incredibly lucky on a couple of occasions at least. Assuming the former for now, doesn't that suggest a very local man who was used to being in the area at night ? He must have had good night vision too based upon the killings in the dark, which also alludes to the previous question. Would this help narrow down the suspect pool somewhat ?

Cheers
Dick

Hi Dickere,

If JtR were local, which there are good arguments made to suggest that, it would be unsurprising if he was aware of some basic aspects concerning police beats. Most beats were set to require about 15 minutes to complete, some were a bit shorter (PC Watkin's, for example, had a beat that required him between 12 and 14 minutes to complete), and others were longer (PC Neil, from Polly Nichols' case, had a beat that required about 30 minutes to complete). The direction (i.e. clockwise vs counterclockwise) was changed every so often, and beats were occasionally "redrawn", as the police did not want criminals scouting some building to get too familiar with things. So, it's unlikely that JtR would have specific knowledge of any of the beats associated with the crimes, but it would be expected he had a general idea of how long beats in general took to complete.

The victims would likewise know of locations to conduct trade where they were unlikely to be disturbed for the amount of time required to conduct business. For some of the crimes we have pretty good information about the beats some of the police covered, and can estimate their positions as they completed them. That allows us to identify time windows for when the victims could arrive at the crime scene without having been seen to do so by the patrolling officer. We can also work out estimates of when JtR would have had to leave the scene to avoid being spotted when the officer returns. While these sorts of reconstructions will, of course, not be perfect recreations of the actual events, they do provide information to work with. Some interesting things have emerged, such as the Church Passage Couple (associated with the Eddowes case), are last seen in a location that would have provided them the opportunity to have seen PC Watkin's as he patrolled Mitre Square on his round prior to his finding Eddowes. And while we do not know if the Church Passage Couple was indeed Eddowes and JtR, it is worth considering that those two people are in a location that would make it possible for them to have seen PC Watkins patrol the area, which coupled with the above general knowledge, would lead to them making the assumption the square will be unvisited for about 15 minutes. That turns out to have been incorrect, though, as PC Watkin's beat was a shorter one, and also PC Harvey would patrol Church Passage itself (though his beat doesn't enter Mitre Square, it did come right up to it). So, like I say, that sort of thing doesn't prove the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, but what it does is tell us that the CPC couple had the opportunity to enter the square as PC Watkin's left it, which maximizes the amount of time available for the crime. In the Eddowes case, that's important to know because the timing is so tight making it hard to understand how JtR could murder and mutilate within that time window. If he had all of the time available, then it becomes less difficult to understand - it's still not a lot of time, but it is enough.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

But to find and remove the organs by touch alone would need a great deal of anatomical knowledge in first being able to locate them, and then to be able to take hold of them, and then remove them as has been described in such a short time frame.

It didnt happen

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Organs are removed with the knife, they are found by touch. An abdomen is not empty like those anatomical models.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon
Good point about the ladies knowing the beat times but Jack didn't magically appear at those moments unless he knew them too as there's no suggestion of him hanging around in advance, or is there ?

No, his victims led him to where they felt the most comfortable, they knew the area better than him (or any customer).
Prostitutes didn't need light to carry out their function.

Again just based on instinct, yes you may strangle and slit a throat by feel in the dark, but removing organs ? That goes beyond having normal capabilities, surely.

Removing organs is done mostly by feel anyway, I'm talking about the emergency room. The abdomen is full of either organs or blood, a doctor needs to know where to feel and what each organ feels like.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Dick.

I'm not so sure about needing extra ordinary sight at night, most of what the killer did was possible by touch alone, but we shouldn't believe he operated in total darkness either. Even in Mitre Sq, his darkest location, the corner was not totally dark.

But to find and remove the organs by touch alone would need a great deal of anatomical knowledge in first being able to locate them, and then to be able to take hold of them, and then remove them as has been described in such a short time frame.

It didnt happen

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk