Assumption buster #2 Mary Jane Kelly

[Phil H]

Bridewell - other threads on the subject of the marginalia in recent weeks have tended to suggest that the Seaside Home witness might well have been other than Lawende.

That is based on the surveiilance by City CID of the Kosminski home. To me, the logic that the witness was NOT Lawende is quite compelling.

Phil H

[Bridewell]

Bridewell - other threads on the subject of the marginalia in recent weeks have tended to suggest that the Seaside Home witness might well have been other than Lawende.

That is based on the surveiilance by City CID of the Kosminski home.
Phil H

Hi Phil,

Thanks. I'll take a look as I've not done so for a while.

To me, the logic that the witness was NOT Lawende is quite compelling.

I agree. Quite apart from anything else, he wasn't a PC.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Phil H]

Bridwell - don't forget that the Seaside home witness HAS to be Jewish - that point is made explicitly by Swanson. I don't think there were that many Jewish PCs on either the City or Met forces. one?

Phil H

[lynn cates]

substitute for a destitute prostitute

Hello Colin. Thanks.

What, specifically constitutes a prostitute? One paying tryst at some point? Merely a tryst?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Surely, a prostitute has to be paid - in cash - for her services. A quick look at Wikipedia provided the following:

"Prostitution is the business or practice of providing sexual services to another person in return for payment."

A courtesan might receive payment but nmore in non-cash terms - housing, clothing, domestic support etc, as well as income. If MJK's story about her residence in France is true, then at that time she might have been paid indirectly.

Soliciting must be more questionable as part of any definition, because a prostitute can work out of a brothel, where the customer goes to her.

Phil H

[lynn cates]

practise makes perfect

Hello Phil. Thanks.

From that definition, it looks like the notion of a casual is otiose.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Apologies for taking so much out of a post which was making an altogether different point but, if this is a reference to the Aberconway version of the MacNaghten Memorandum, Sir Melville actually alluded to a"City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square". (If there was ever such an individual, I think it has to be Harvey rather than Watkins whose beat included Mitre Square.)

Just to digress slightly - permissible I think on an assumption thread - why is it always assumed that this is a reference to either Lawende or Schwartz?. MacNaghten wasn't gaga and specifically refers to "a City PC" "a beat" & "near Mitre Square". IMHO it's either complete nonsense or a reference to an unnamed City PC who saw the killer.

Regards, Bridewell.

The point I was making Bridewell is that we have many statements that cannot be validated, and some that are flat out wrong. From Senior men.


All the best

[Damaso Marte]

I believe, personally, that Stride and Kelly might both be "domestics" with the latter partially made to look as if by the Ripper.

"partially" - understatement of the year?

[Damaso Marte]

It seems to me that the circumstances of Mckenzie's death are VERY similar to those of Nichols - a thoroughfare off the main highway. The murderer was quick - the moment of opportunity a short one - and was probably disturbed in the act (as was possibly the case with Nichols).

The wounds on Mckenzie's body are not dissimilar to those on Nichols', particularly if the tight clothing Mckenzie wore and interruption are taken into account.

I think the reason Mckenzie was so often dismissed as a JtR victim in the past was that the killer was seen as having increasing mutilation in his work, especially from Eddowes to Kelly, and Pipe Clay Alice did not fit that pattern.

Once I began to question whether Kelly was a victim of "Jack", that mounting ferocity no longer was a vital consideration. the possibility emerged, for me, that a "Jack who had killed Nichols and Chapman (maybe Eddowes) only might have been the killer of Mckenzie - the more so if he was weakened, ill or incapacitated in some way. (The idea of a post-Eddowes infection is attractive, but too speculative to rely on, but a mentally impaired "Jack" or a failing "Jack" is not an impossibility).

Hence I now include Mckenzie (though always in parentheses or with a question mark) as a possible JtR victim. Coles, I also consider, but I see the length of time as too long. At the the other end, I am open to an earlier victim than Nichols being found, though not - IMHO - Tabram.

Hope that helps,

Phil H

I accept MJK and Eddowes, but I'm open to Mckenzie and Coles despite the apparent de-escalation. I like to explain it by analogy to myself: I've had several hobbies earlier in my life that I've since abandoned, sometimes after major accomplishments. When I've come back to those hobbies, I find myself far less motivated and far less capable.

In so much as we can say that ripping is a hobby, the idea of a Ripper trying to return to his old hobby, only to find that his heart is no longer in it, resulting in a half-hearted effort, is plausible to me.

[The Good Michael]

In so much as we can say that ripping is a hobby, the idea of a Ripper trying to return to his old hobby, only to find that his heart is no longer in it, resulting in a half-hearted effort, is plausible to me.

At first I liked this idea. A few seconds later I had doubts. Would a person spend the time it took to get to the point of where he could do some "creative" work,(and surely this would be the most difficult part of the hobby, lying in wait or preparing oneself in whatever way) and then NOT be into the ripping? Maybe, but I don't believe so.

Mike

[lynn cates]

The thrill is gone.

Hello Damaso. Would it be fair to quote the lyrics, "The thrill is gone . . ."?

Of course, one must wonder what other hobbies he had. Stabbing? Poisoning?

Cheers.
LC

[Damaso Marte]

At first I liked this idea. A few seconds later I had doubts. Would a person spend the time it took to get to the point of where he could do some "creative" work,(and surely this would be the most difficult part of the hobby, lying in wait or preparing oneself in whatever way) and then NOT be into the ripping? Maybe, but I don't believe so.

Mike

Arguably, getting a prostitute to show you a dark place where there's no police is not the hard part of being a prostitute killer in 1888 Whitechapel.

[The Good Michael]

Arguably, getting a prostitute to show you a dark place where there's no police is not the hard part of being a prostitute killer in 1888 Whitechapel.

It's all the other things that may or may not be involved including getting a buzz on at one bar or another to stoke the courage. Then after that, to be sure you find a victim who is without companions who could point fingers and is the right age (if that was a factor).

Mike

[Patrick S]

It's commonly assumed that MJK was the final victim, although some commentators suggest that other similar killings may be also attributable to JTR.

Taking Tabram as the first murder (controversial), and Kelly as the last, it is suggested that between these killings there is a clear evolution of MO. Based on this it is further suggested that after killing MJK and having time with her body to carry out the mutilations the ripper would no longer be satisfied with mere street killings. Is it not therefore possible that after killing MJK the ripper's MO evolved significantly perhaps by taking his victims home and carrying out both murder and mutilation there.

Who knows, in some forgotten lime pit under some London cellar, there may be many many more victims. Discuss.....................

An interesting suggestion. If this were to have happened, we would see a killer moving from being of the 'disorganized' variety to the 'organized' variety. Can someone comment if this is a common evolution or if it's something relatively rare?

[lynn cates]

If wishes were horses . . .

Hello Patrick. I think it is quite common in cases where there are different hands but yet an intrepid researcher who wishes to find only one.

Cheers.
LC