Assumption buster #2 Mary Jane Kelly

[Phil H]

Bridewell - other threads on the subject of the marginalia in recent weeks have tended to suggest that the Seaside Home witness might well have been other than Lawende.

That is based on the surveiilance by City CID of the Kosminski home. To me, the logic that the witness was NOT Lawende is quite compelling.

Phil H

[Bridewell]

Another Assumption

We have the PC in Mitre Square that saw the Ripper

Best regards

Hi Michael,

Apologies for taking so much out of a post which was making an altogether different point but, if this is a reference to the Aberconway version of the MacNaghten Memorandum, Sir Melville actually alluded to a"City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square". (If there was ever such an individual, I think it has to be Harvey rather than Watkins whose beat included Mitre Square.)

Just to digress slightly - permissible I think on an assumption thread - why is it always assumed that this is a reference to either Lawende or Schwartz?. MacNaghten wasn't gaga and specifically refers to "a City PC" "a beat" & "near Mitre Square". IMHO it's either complete nonsense or a reference to an unnamed City PC who saw the killer.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Soliciting

Hello Mac.

"The Torso killer was not murdering prositutes in dark corners."

How can we know that? Conversely, aside from Polly and Annie, how do we know the other 3 were soliciting at time of death?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I don't think Mac said they were soliciting, just that they were prostitutes.
Just because we don't know that they were soliciting at time of death doesn't mean that they weren't prostitutes, who may have been known by their killer to be such, whether they were soliciting or not.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

The killer would have no car in which to transport the body so killing and leaving them in the secluded corners the victims possibly led him to seems the most practical option, from a homicidal maniac`s point of view.

Hi Jon,

If you're posting 'from a homicidal maniac's point of view', can I just say you're my best friend and I won't have a thing said against you!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Folks,

I believe the pawn ticket for the boots was dated for the Friday, under the name Jane Kelly of #6 Dorset Street. The name she gave when she checked into the Bishopsgate motel for a few hours was Mary Ann Kelly of Fashion Street.

Although there are other variations suggested I believe these were the correct names provided by Kate. Ive pointed out on a few occasions here that within those 2 aliases is the name and address.....Mary Jane Kelly, _6 Dorset Street.

Its as if she chose a name of someone she knew but changed the specifics slightly so the Mary Kelly who did live on Dorset Street wouldnt be hunted or found.

Which by the way, Mary may well have been. The last few weeks of her life she fell behind in the rent, likely because she chose not to work as often. Perhaps fear of being out alone at night explains her escort home from the bar by Blotchy, and her request to have Barnett read the details of the investigations to her.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

What's in a name?

Hello Jon. thanks.

Yes, I've seen Mary Anne Kelly and Anne Kelly. If I recall properly, one was the name she gave at Bishopsgate gaol, the other was on the pawn ticket.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Lynn. I`m sure I`ve seen it printed as Mary Ann Kelly too. But I don`t recall seeing it as Mary Kelly, as Michael suggested.

[lynn cates]

Annie, get your pawn ticket.

Hello Jon. Thanks. "The Times" of 2 October has "Anne."

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

In this instance, since Kate did in fact use the name Mary Kelly the night she was murdered, on a police record, he may well have been recollecting the Mitre Square murder.

I know the name Jane Kelly was on one of the pawn tickets found on Eddowes. Is this what you refer to?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lynn

He obviously meant Mary Kelly in Millers Court. The clue is in the bit where he names Mary Kelly ;-)

Hi Jon,

I would take great caution when assuming that what was said by some of the individuals were in fact accurate recollections, or factual statements. We have many instances when reflections on the cases and the specifics of some murders are most probably misrepresented by senior officials. We have the PC in Mitre Square that saw the Ripper, we have Ostrog listed as a primary suspect even though we now know he was incarcerated at that time, we have Druitt the Doctor, we have a definitive statement about the killers ethnicity,... ...there are plenty.

In this instance, since Kate did in fact use the name Mary Kelly the night she was murdered, on a police record, he may well have been recollecting the Mitre Square murder.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

coppers

Hello Cris.

"No one knows. Its just as possible that Reid was right and one individual killed all of these women as it is to split every little detail and play mix and match."

Indeed. But the question involved what the police thought. There was a variety of ideas--even amongst them.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

No Kate?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

So he excludes Kate? Excellent--grist for my mill.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

What Arnold said is ambiguous and not easy to interpret without bias.

A big reason why McKenzie is not considered is because it interferes with many suspect theories - both contemporary and modern - which have something happen to their suspects between the Kelly murder and the McKenzie murder - a possible inconvenient truth on that matter as well as what a single killer - if that may be the case - was expected to do.

No one knows. Its just as possible that Reid was right and one individual killed all of these women as it is to split every little detail and play mix and match. It could be like making a stew instead of setting aside selected entrées. All of these women did fit into the same pot.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

He referred to Mary Kelly in Mitre Square--an obvious reference to Eddowes, AKA "Mary Anne Kelly."
"MJK" was not killed in Mitre Square.

He obviously meant Mary Kelly in Millers Court. The clue is in the bit where he names Mary Kelly ;-)

[lynn cates]

which?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

He referred to Mary Kelly in Mitre Square--an obvious reference to Eddowes, AKA "Mary Anne Kelly."

"MJK" was not killed in Mitre Square.

Cheers.
LC