Attempted Decapitation

[Damaso Marte]

I often see it stated as a fact on this forum that there is evidence for attempted decapitation for Nichols and Chapman. Is there evidence for this beyond the very deep wounds to the neck?

[robhouse]

I do not particularly recall this being said about Nichols, but in the case of Annie Chapman, the idea of attempted decapitation stems from the evidence of Dr. George Bagster Phillips:

"The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other, and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck."

Rob House

[ChrisGeorge]

I often see it stated as a fact on this forum that there is evidence for attempted decapitation for Nichols and Chapman. Is there evidence for this beyond the very deep wounds to the neck?

Hello Damaso

This question of decapitation is really a nonstarter because certainly if the killer had wanted to decapitate he would have done so. And he didn't. So it's not really worth talking about. Yes, the very deep wounds to the neck almost constituted decapitation, but if he had wanted to behead his victims, he just needed to go a bit further to accomplish it.

Best regards

Chris

[Damaso Marte]

Hello Damaso

This question of decapitation is really a nonstarter because certainly if the killer had wanted to decapitate he would have done so. And he didn't. So it's not really worth talking about. Yes, the very deep wounds to the neck almost constituted decapitation, but if he had wanted to behead his victims, he just need to go a bit further to accomplish it.

Best regards

Chris

Is decapitating a person with only a sharp knife really that easy? One hears stories of poorly trained executioners with an axe or sword having to take several hacks to accomplish it.

One prominent poster here tells a story about one killer who attempted decapitation, and others who did not. Perhaps one could also tell a story about a single killer who twice attempted decapitation, found it difficult, and decided he would satisfy his body part separation urges by cutting off a nose or a breast instead.

[robhouse]

Chris,

I don't know about you, but I have no personal experience trying to decapitate anybody... if Chapman's killer did try to decapitate her, it was probably not pre-planned. Trying to decapitate with a knife might be (I imagine) quite difficult, as you have to cut through the spinal column. I can imagine that the killer may have attempted this, and given up when he found it was too difficult. Dr. Phillips gave his opinion that the muscular tissues between the spinal processes were cut through giving the impression that the killer was trying to sever the bones of the neck. Does that not suggest that the killer did in fact attempt to decapitate, and failed to do so?

I do not think decapitation with a knife is necessarily so easy.

RH

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello Rob

This killer had, what four, five, or more victims? And he couldn't get it right? Counting Mary Jane Kelly too? All night long and he couldn't remove the head? As I say, if he had wanted to remove the head, he could have done so.

Best regards

Chris

[Disco Stu]

Knife decapitation

I'd hate to stir any unhappy memories, but just with regard to feasability, I recall news reports of knives being used to behead kidnapping victims in the middle east and Afghanistan. I've never watched any of the viedos, so the method used is beyond me but it is apprently possible.

I'm not saying a killer in Whitehchapel was attempting decapitation, simply that a knife could be used if that was the intent.

[Wickerman]

....Dr. Phillips gave his opinion that the muscular tissues between the spinal processes were cut through giving the impression that the killer was trying to sever the bones of the neck. Does that not suggest that the killer did in fact attempt to decapitate, and failed to do so?

I would expect Phillips to have referred to the cartilage between the bones rather than the muscle at the side of the neck.
Unless the recorder misunderstood Phillips' words.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

The "spinal processes" will be the "Transverse Process" on either side of the Cervical vertebra. As we can see the cartilage is deeper within.



Phillips assumed the perpetrator attempted to separate the neck bones because the neck muscle between two of these processes had been cut through.
It could equally have been the result of a vicious deep wound. If the cartilage (grey matter above) had been interfered with then that would have been conclusive.

Regards, Jon S.

[robhouse]

Phillips assumed the perpetrator attempted to separate the neck bones because the neck muscle between two of these processes had been cut through.

Actually, unless I am reading this wrong, Phillips simply said that the muscles between the processes had the appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones. This may have simply meant the muscles were cut, or it may mean something else.

"The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck."

[Barnaby]

The Gainsville Ripper decaptitated with a knife. I don't think it is incredibly difficult to accomplish for Jack given what we think we know about his knife and assuming average strength.

I think Kelly is the key here (assuming she is a Ripper victim). If he wanted to decapitate, he most certainly would have decapitated her. The fact that he didn't shows he really wasn't into that sort of thing.

[kensei]

As a precedent, I offer the case of Yosemite Park killer Carey Anthony Stayner from 1999. His final victim Joie Ruth Armstrong- and only her- was decapitated by what was described as "one swift stroke" with a hunting knife, and her head then thrown into a river. It's shocking that it could be that easy.

On the other hand, Night Stalker Richard Ramirez is said to have attempted to chop off the head of one of his male victims with a machete, and been completely bewildered when the blade bounced off the side of the neck leaving a slight cut but not slicing all the way through as he'd expected. In that case, he was shocked that it could be that hard.

So there seems to be many variables to decapitation. Did the Ripper attempt it? Well, as others have said, one would think that with all the time he had with Mary Kelly, if he'd wanted to take her head off he surely would have.

[caz]

I don't think any of us can be that sure about the mentality at work here. Besides, we do know that if the ripper was responsible for Chapman (uterus taken away), Eddowes (uterus and kidney taken away, facial mutilations plus carefully nicked eyelids) and Kelly (all sorts of stuff cut off or taken out, but nothing taken from the scene apart from - apparently - the heart), he certainly didn't repeat everything that he could have repeated, given sufficient time and the will to do so. Yes, I've no doubt he could have cut off Kelly's head, but it's illogical to argue that he would have done so if he had ever tried it with a previous victim, because equally he could have taken away her womb and a kidney with no trouble at all, but left them with the body instead.

The evidence suggests, therefore, that he didn't want or need to stick to a strict mutilation shopping list from one murder to the next, and was arguably seeking new thrills with every kill. Anything attempted and not totally successful or stimulating would surely be dropped in favour of something different, given that his time was precious even in Kelly's room.

Also, who among us has not fancied trying something new, put a little effort into it, then quickly lost interest, because it was not as easy or enjoyable or productive as we had hoped, and we figured the time and effort would be better spent on doing something much more up our alley?

Love,

Caz
X

[Hunter]

Daily Telegraph report on testimony of Dr. George Bagster Phillips at the Stride inquest concerning the neck injuries to Annie Chapman:


Coroner: Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case?

Dr. Phillips: There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

[lynn cates]

manual attempt

Hello Cris. Thanks for posting that.

I have always read Bagster as indicating a belief that a manual attempt at decapitation had occurred. Put another way, the doctor believed that the assailant had attempted to pull or wrench Annie's head away from the spine.

No need to say why this particular desideratum interests me a great deal.

Cheers.
LC