Where Were They

[FISHY1118]

Sorry but i dont see the photograph Herlock

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes i believe ive seen a post on here where someone put up his details according to 1888[ or there abouts] census, so yes he existed and his occupation was listed as a cab driver .As far as his ties to the palace are concerned i can only go by what old Walter Sickert claimed that he used to ferry P.A.V around as his personal driver away from the protocols of his royal duties.

Found this.

https://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/138.html

Do we know if the photograph is definitely him? I’m not doubting it but we know that photographs can sometimes be identified incorrectly.

[Michael W Richards]

Might have been the only sighting of Jack the Ripper.

Height tallies with GSG. 5'3".

Possibly been catching up with friends at The Black Swan where a relative once worked.

That might be true if not for Cadosche and his statement that indicates that someone was already in the back yard at around 5:20, hard to imagine we have a revolving door where many couples visit the exact spot someone is murdered on, very close to the same time. Long didn't see Annie, Cadosche heard her.

[FISHY1118]

Yes i believe ive seen a post on here where someone put up his details according to 1888[ or there abouts] census, so yes he existed and his occupation was listed as a cab driver .As far as his ties to the palace are concerned i can only go by what old Walter Sickert claimed that he used to ferry P.A.V around as his personal driver away from the protocols of his royal duties.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But this is the point Fishy. How was a mode of transport that was confined to the upper classes something that they were used to seeing in a street like Buck’s Row and at around 3.30 am? Someone would have seen it and mentioned it.

Im not at all convinced that mode of transport was strictly limited to the upper class. Im sure there were different modes and types of horse drawn carriages, especially the one such as a cab driver like Netley would have used to get around whitechapel ,might well have blended in nicely?

It would have had to have been of decent size to facilitate the murder and mutilation of a women though. Perhaps I was being too restrictive to say upper classes alone? I’ll include the middle classes too but not you’re average Whitechapel resident. Netley was cab driver (just as an aside - has Netley been properly identified?) but wasn’t he supposed to be a reserve driver at the Palace? This would have required a quality carriage.

[FISHY1118]

But this is the point Fishy. How was a mode of transport that was confined to the upper classes something that they were used to seeing in a street like Buck’s Row and at around 3.30 am? Someone would have seen it and mentioned it.

Im not at all convinced that mode of transport was strictly limited to the upper class. Im sure there were different modes and types of horse drawn carriages, especially the one such as a cab driver like Netley would have used to get around whitechapel ,might well have blended in nicely?

[Herlock Sholmes]

No one reported seeing a horse drawn carriage, thats true . But like i suggested, is more like if someone did one they thought nothing of it, even tho it was in the the area or close to the murder site. As it was probably something they were used to seeing , and certainly didnt think it had anything to do with the murder .

But this is the point Fishy. How was a mode of transport that was confined to the upper classes something that they were used to seeing in a street like Buck’s Row and at around 3.30 am? Someone would have seen it and mentioned it.

[FISHY1118]

How does the same apply?

No one saw or heard a horse and carriage at or near any of the murder sites. Obviously they would have had to have pulled up reasonably close to the sites. The chances of a horse and carriage not being seen would have been almost impossible.

No one reported seeing a horse drawn carriage, thats true . But like i suggested, is more like if someone did one they thought nothing of it, even tho it was in the the area or close to the murder site. As it was probably something they were used to seeing , and certainly didnt think it had anything to do with the murder .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Horse drawn carriage then ok ?, same post applies. What history tells us is this , Never underestimate what people will do and what lengths they will go to where the act of murder is concerned

How does the same apply?

No one saw or heard a horse and carriage at or near any of the murder sites. Obviously they would have had to have pulled up reasonably close to the sites. The chances of a horse and carriage not being seen would have been almost impossible.

[FISHY1118]

Horse drawn carriage then ok ?, same post applies. What history tells us is this , Never underestimate what people will do and what lengths they will go to where the act of murder is concerned

[Herlock Sholmes]

What you fail to realize is that its not that nobody heard a horse drawn carriage if their was one, and its not out of the realms of possibility that there wasn't , [according to Paul who thought the body was dumped on the spot where she was found] its the fact nobody took any notice of a carriage, cart... as they were the transport of the times and were up and down bucks row regularly .
like living next to or on a train line ,at first you hear them all the time but after a while you dont take any notice .. a simple explanation really , i don t see the need for your chainsaw theory at all .

We are not talking about a cart and horse are we though? You propose the Knight/Sickert theory which states that the murders took place in a horse drawn coach/carriage and not on the back ofa cart. There is a big difference. You are deliberately conflating the two. A cart would not have stood out in that area (although I would still say that one would have in all likelihood have been heard or noticed at around 3.30-3.40 am in an otherwise virtually deserted street) A coach and horses on the other hand would have been the means of travel of the upper classes (like Gull) That class of people would hardly have been regular visitors to a street like Buck’s Row. And certainly not in the very early hours of the morning. A coach and horses, apart from making a noise like thunder, would have stuck out like a shark in a garden pond!

[FISHY1118]

What you fail to realize is that its not that nobody heard a horse drawn carriage if their was one, and its not out of the realms of possibility that there wasn't , [according to Paul who thought the body was dumped on the spot where she was found] its the fact nobody took any notice of a carriage, cart... as they were the transport of the times and were up and down bucks row regularly .
like living next to or on a train line ,at first you hear them all the time but after a while you dont take any notice .. a simple explanation really , i don t see the need for your chainsaw theory at all .

[Herlock Sholmes]

And yet no one saw jack the ripper murder poor Mary Ann Nichols between 3.30am and 3.45am in the morning...... but he did . Didn't he . ?

The difference is obvious to all Fishy. We are comparing a) a man and a woman walking together (prostitutes and their clients were hardly a rarity) The woman is unsuspecting. He silenced her before she could scream then he killed her with a knife and not a chainsaw. Pretty noiseless? And b) a coach and horses clattering along the otherwise silent cobbled streets in an area where it wouldn’t have been the norm to have seen one especially at that time of the morning. An area where at least 3 officers were patrolling their beats. It’s not a particular stretch of the imagination for a killer to be able to use the shadows, the doorways and the side streets to avoid police attention. Somewhat more difficult to make a coach and horses inconspicuous. I suppose that it’s not impossible that they asked the horses to keep the noise down as people were asleep.

Not really comparable are they?

[FISHY1118]

Again, Buck’s Row, a very quiet backstreet and yet no one saw or heard a coach and horses clattering along the cobbles. People going to work, police officers on the beat (Neill, Mizen, Thain etc) Emma Green, Walter Purkiss. No one. Horses and carts are one thing but a coach and horses was the mode of transport of the wealthy and so would have been even more noticeable in that area.

And yet no one saw jack the ripper murder poor Mary Ann Nichols between 3.30am and 3.45am in the morning...... but he did . Didn't he . ?

[Damaso Marte]

The killer may have socialized with his victims for hours before killing them. After all, it's not like he planned to actually pay them at the end of the night. We have no proof but it's not inconsistent with the evidence. Then again, it's also not inconsistent with the evidence to say he was an ambush predator who killed within seconds of meeting the victims, so not exactly a high standard.