Where Were They

[Herlock Sholmes]

Its my opinion his first thoughts were very relevant , he may well have been mistaken, but then again he may not have been

I can’t see how Paul’s opinion carries any weight at all. If doctors TOD estimates were potentially unsafe it’s difficult to see how this Holmes-like deduction made by someone that drove a cart for a living should be considered valid.

Again, just because something is not impossible it does not mean that it’s worth considering. It’s probably not absolutely impossible that Abberline was the ripper or that Donald Trump was the Zodiac Killer but we don’t give them a moments consideration. The idea that these women were killed elsewhere is nonsense. Again, Buck’s Row, a very quiet backstreet and yet no one saw or heard a coach and horses clattering along the cobbles. People going to work, police officers on the beat (Neill, Mizen, Thain etc) Emma Green, Walter Purkiss. No one. Horses and carts are one thing but a coach and horses was the mode of transport of the wealthy and so would have been even more noticeable in that area.

[FISHY1118]

Do you where was he? When he saw the unaccounted for blood, he was in the mortuary.

If you mean where was the unaccounted for blood? According to Llewellyn, in the body cavity.

Nope not that i can see, he doesn't say that.

[FISHY1118]

The point is that Paul’s first thoughts were hardly relevant. He was a Carman not a Doctor or Sherlock Holmes. He was mistaken.

Its my opinion his first thoughts were very relevant , he may well have been mistaken, but then again he may not have been

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just found it interesting that Pauls first thoughts were that the body of Nichols may have been dumped after she was murderer .

The point is that Paul’s first thoughts were hardly relevant. He was a Carman not a Doctor or Sherlock Holmes. He was mistaken.

[drstrange169]

Do you where was he? When he saw the unaccounted for blood, he was in the mortuary.

If you mean where was the unaccounted for blood? According to Llewellyn, in the body cavity.

[FISHY1118]

They were all based on Llewellyn's initial statements about the lack of blood at the scene. Once he examined the body Llewellyn knew where the blood went and changed his story accordingly.

Exactly where did Llewellyn know where the blood went .?

[drstrange169]

Paul's views may well have been coloured by the early press reports that said just that.

They were all based on Llewellyn's initial statements about the lack of blood at the scene. Once he examined the body Llewellyn knew where the blood went and changed his story accordingly.

Paul also appears to gilding his Lloyd's story to put the boot into the police.

[FISHY1118]

Just found it interesting that Pauls first thoughts were that the body of Nichols may have been dumped after she was murderer .

[GUT]

Hi,
From reading this thread, I thought we were not allowed to disregard the testimony? The doctors all stated they were certain the victims were killed where they were found, so, don't the rules already preclude killed elsewhere? Also, if we're required to take the testimony as given, then doesn't that mean we have to take, as given, Long's identification of Chapman and Lawende's identification of Eddowes? (tentative though Lawende's identification may be, he did testify he thought it was Eddowes' clothes, ego Eddowes, at least by the rules outlined).

I don't know, the rules seem a bit ... adjustable when convenient (or is it when inconvenient?)

- Jeff

That’s where you went wrong you thought there was come consistency in what is and isn’t allowed by various posters.

[JeffHamm]

Hi,
From reading this thread, I thought we were not allowed to disregard the testimony? The doctors all stated they were certain the victims were killed where they were found, so, don't the rules already preclude killed elsewhere? Also, if we're required to take the testimony as given, then doesn't that mean we have to take, as given, Long's identification of Chapman and Lawende's identification of Eddowes? (tentative though Lawende's identification may be, he did testify he thought it was Eddowes' clothes, ego Eddowes, at least by the rules outlined).

I don't know, the rules seem a bit ... adjustable when convenient (or is it when inconvenient?)

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

left to die, or she must have been murdered somewhere else and carried there.''

Robert Paul 1888... co discovery of the body
...



Trying to show that Annie being unaccounted for for 3 or 4 hours before her death somehow points to the fact that she was killed earlier and elsewhere is an exercise in futility.

herlock 2019

[Herlock Sholmes]

And why should we put weight in the medical opinion of a carman? How could he make any judgment of value? You yourself, on other threads, have repeatedly stressed how doctors got the TOD’s correct in three cases including Nichols. Yet again you are desperately looking for absolutely any none existent thread to suggest that the victims weren’t killed where they were found. Nichol’s was killed in Buck’s Row. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

[FISHY1118]

WALKED ALONG BUCK'S ROW


Second Man On The Mary Nichols Murder Scene

At around 3.45am, on the morning of August 31st, 1888, Robert Paul was walking along Buck's Row, when a man approached him and asked him to come and look at a woman who was lying in a gateway.

Given the roughness of the locality, Paul was a little apprehensive at first, but he went over and saw the body of Mary Nichols.

Later that day, he told a reporter from Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper of his experiences that morning:-

THE FATHER OF THE MURDERED WOMAN

A REMARKABLE STATEMENT


On Friday night Mr. Robert Paul, a carman, on his return from work, made the following statement to our representative. He said :-

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market. It was dark, and I was hurrying along, when I saw a man standing where the woman was. He came a little towards me, but, as I knew the dangerous character of the locality, I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about. There have been many knocked down and robbed at that spot.

The man, however, came towards me and said, "Come and look at this woman."

I went and found the woman lying on her back. I laid hold of her wrist and found that she was dead and the hands cold. It was too dark to see the blood about her. I thought that she had been outraged, and had died in the struggle.

I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw. I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead.

''The woman was so cold that she must have been dead some time, and either she had been lying there, left to die, or she must have been murdered somewhere else and carried there.''

If she had been lying there long enough to get so cold as she was when I saw her, it shows that no policeman on the beat had been down there for a long time. If a policeman had been there he must have seen her, for she was plain enough to see. Her bonnet was lying about two feet from her head."

Source: Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, Sunday, 2nd September, 1888.

On Monday, 17th September, 1888, Robert Paul appeared as a witness at the resumed inquest into the death of Mary Nichols.

The Lakes Herald published a brief report on what he had to say in its edition of Friday, 21st September, 1888:- HIS INQUEST TESTIMONY

Robert Paul, a carman, said that on the morning of the crime he left home just before a quarter to four.

He was passing up Buck's-row and saw a man standing in the middle of the road. The man touched him upon the shoulder, and said, "Come and look at this woman here."

He went and saw the woman lying right across a gateway. He felt her hands and face. They were both cold. The morning was very dark.

The other man and he agreed that the best thing to be done was to tell the first police man they met.

He arranged the clothes as well as he could. He put his hand to the woman's breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old.

He saw no one running away, nor did he notice anything whatever of a suspicious nature."

Source: The Lakes Herald, Friday, 21st September, 1888.

• I certainly wouldn't want to tell Robert Paul that it was futile, after all he was there and we cant entirely dismiss his opinion at that time .

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is nothing wrong in attempting to account for the movements of these women of course but we just can’t read anything into it if we can’t. This day and age of course the police would expect to be able to fill in a few more gaps. CCTV recordings, credit card and ATM usage, texts, phone calls, Tweets and other social media etc. A dirt poor East End prostitute would leave very few tracks in the sand. Let’s face it the police were hardly likely to have someone walk into a police station to admit to having sex with Annie Chapman down some back alley an hour or so before she was murdered. Trying to show that Annie being unaccounted for for 3 or 4 hours before her death somehow points to the fact that she was killed earlier and elsewhere is an exercise in futility.

[Sleuth1888]

Tom Westcott has suggested that Nichols (I think, although it's also a possibility for the others) may have been watching an illegal boxing match which were popular in the 1888 East End, the nature of which suggests no one would come forward.