Where Were They

[FISHY1118]

I guess asking people to be subjective for the purpose of the exercise was bound to fail . Ahh well have it your way.

But ill bet my bottom dollar codosch knew exactly what time he got up, he did it every morning six days a week probably for years and im sure he went to the privy every morning too like most people do, and that he also had a fair estimate of how long that took him as well. As for long Is concerned i wonder how many times she passed the brewers clock on her way to the market and heard it strike 5.30 only to mistake it for 5.15 seriously?. But then the clock was probably wrong wasn't it .

[Cogidubnus]

I guess asking people to be subjective for the purpose of the exercise was bound to fail . Ahh well have it your way.

But ill bet my bottom dollar codosch knew exactly what time he got up, he did it every morning six days a week probably for years and im sure he went to the privy every morning too like most people do, and that he also had a fair estimate of how long that took him as well. As for long Is concerned i wonder how many times she passed the brewers clock on her way to the market and heard it strike 5.30 only to mistake it for 5.15 seriously?. But then the clock was probably wrong wasn't it .

Peter, I know you like absolute truths, and fixed facts...we all do...in a way they're our framework in life...but sadly the Late Victorian era is possibly the last one in the Western world when the absolute facts regarding timing just aren't there...

Like you, I believe Cadosche was a creature of habit, and having gone to bed when it got dark, easily woke early and pottered about until he heard the clock strike an hour, then started getting ready for work...a bit like you and I do (well I did until I retired but that's another story)...all well and good but what if he misheard a chime and went in an hour early? And yes, I've done that too even WITH a watch, (just after the clocks changed!)...So I can understand Mrs Long mishearing the chimes and going in early...

Dave

[Herlock Sholmes]

I guess asking people to be subjective for the purpose of the exercise was bound to fail . Ahh well have it your way.

But ill bet my bottom dollar codosch knew exactly what time he got up, he did it every morning six days a week probably for years and im sure he went to the privy every morning too like most people do, and that he also had a fair estimate of how long that took him as well. As for long Is concerned i wonder how many times she passed the brewers clock on her way to the market and heard it strike 5.30 only to mistake it for 5.15 seriously?. But then the clock was probably wrong wasn't it .

In your world, being subjective means, agreeing with you. Every poster on this thread, apart from you, has been totally subjective and honest. Why can’t you grasp this very simple premise? One that everyone knows is a fact of history. That most working class people couldn’t have afforded to have owned a watch or a clock. Most people even relied on constable’s to get them up for work in the mornings. Are you even aware of knocking up?And so it’s a known fact that times have to be treated with caution. That’s not to say that if a witness said 7am that it could have been 8am it just means that it could have been 5 past or 10 past. This is to take reasonable caution under the circumstances. To deny this is to be dishonest.

Do we know Cadosch had a clock? No we don’t. He might have been knocked up by a Constable. That Constable might have knocked him and others up at around the same time everyday. But the fact of the matter is that a Constable couldn’t guarantee the exact same time. What if he had to stop on his round to deal with a problem? An unlocked gate, two people fighting, a drunk needing moving on, a call for help from a fellow officer. Any of these, or other things, could have meant that the Constable was 5 or 10 minutes or so later than usual knocking up Cadosch. And of course, without having a clock, Cadosch would just assume that it was the usual time. This is simply the truth. Without bias. He might have known the time pretty accurately or he might not have. Simple.

This is a fact Fishy. It’s also very simple. It’s also dishonest to try and claim otherwise.

[FISHY1118]

In your world, being subjective means, agreeing with you. Every poster on this thread, apart from you, has been totally subjective and honest. Why can’t you grasp this very simple premise? One that everyone knows is a fact of history. That most working class people couldn’t have afforded to have owned a watch or a clock. Most people even relied on constable’s to get them up for work in the mornings. Are you even aware of knocking up?And so it’s a known fact that times have to be treated with caution. That’s not to say that if a witness said 7am that it could have been 8am it just means that it could have been 5 past or 10 past. This is to take reasonable caution under the circumstances. To deny this is to be dishonest.

Do we know Cadosch had a clock? No we don’t. He might have been knocked up by a Constable. That Constable might have knocked him and others up at around the same time everyday. But the fact of the matter is that a Constable couldn’t guarantee the exact same time. What if he had to stop on his round to deal with a problem? An unlocked gate, two people fighting, a drunk needing moving on, a call for help from a fellow officer. Any of these, or other things, could have meant that the Constable was 5 or 10 minutes or so later than usual knocking up Cadosch. And of course, without having a clock, Cadosch would just assume that it was the usual time. This is simply the truth. Without bias. He might have known the time pretty accurately or he might not have. Simple.

This is a fact Fishy. It’s also very simple. It’s also dishonest to try and claim otherwise.

Fascinating how your an expert on the habits and lifestyle of one albert codosch and what he did and didn't have i think you should seriously think about writing to scotland yard and asking them to remove all of long and codoschs inquest statments as they really mean jack sh..it according to you .

and again you missed the point of this thread as ususal .

[FISHY1118]

Peter, I know you like absolute truths, and fixed facts...we all do...in a way they're our framework in life...but sadly the Late Victorian era is possibly the last one in the Western world when the absolute facts regarding timing just aren't there...

Like you, I believe Cadosche was a creature of habit, and having gone to bed when it got dark, easily woke early and pottered about until he heard the clock strike an hour, then started getting ready for work...a bit like you and I do (well I did until I retired but that's another story)...all well and good but what if he misheard a chime and went in an hour early? And yes, I've done that too even WITH a watch, (just after the clocks changed!)...So I can understand Mrs Long mishearing the chimes and going in early...

Thanks Dave for your comment, i appreciate it,, but as suggested this was about Long and Codosch being correct without any ifs, buts ,and maybe. then having a discussion as to how the murder might then have happened given the unusual set of circumstances . A Simple request but made very complicated . CHEERS

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks Dave for your comment, i appreciate it,, but as suggested this was about Long and Codosch being correct without any ifs, buts ,and maybe. then having a discussion as to how the murder might then have happened given the unusual set of circumstances . A Simple request but made very complicated . CHEERS

OK Peter, I did sort of grasp that, but you see if you were to take on all the witness statements, in every case, (and not just the well known ones either - check out the press section some time!), I think they'd all fall apart...on that one factor of time alone, where they tend to be contradictory...well, that and the fact that much of the detail we have left has been provided by the newspapers, and they're not renowned for their honesty in reporting the true facts very accurately...

I think it's a case of trying to make sense of the bare bones of what we've got, rather than just scrapping all of it and taking a wild guess spiced with invention...which is what some of the earlier authors seem to have done...

Dave

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fascinating how your an expert on the habits and lifestyle of one albert codosch and what he did and didn't have i think you should seriously think about writing to scotland yard and asking them to remove all of long and codoschs inquest statments as they really mean jack sh..it according to you .

and again you missed the point of this thread as ususal .

I haven’t claimed to know anything for a fact Fishy. What I’ve merely stated is what we know to have been true due to the history that is available to us. We know that those that lived in that area were very poor. Very lowly paid. Surely you can not argue with this point? We also know that most wouldn’t have owned a watch or a clock. They simply couldn’t have afforded such a luxury item when it was a challenge to just pay the rent and put some meagre food on the table. Cadosch might have owned one though of course. We simply don’t know. So it’s sensible to apply a little caution to timings. Not to dismiss them out of hand but just to apply caution and to accept that we shouldn’t assume them always to have been exact. We also know about knocking up. It was an accepted part of police duties. This is a fact. If you disagree look at Buck’s Row and the actions of PC Mizen who was busy knocking up when he was approached by Lechmere and Paul.

Why is any of the above unreasonable?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Dave for your comment, i appreciate it,, but as suggested this was about Long and Codosch being correct without any ifs, buts ,and maybe. then having a discussion as to how the murder might then have happened given the unusual set of circumstances . A Simple request but made very complicated . CHEERS

As far as I can recall, no poster has claimed that Long and Cadosch were undoubtedly correct. They might have been. They might not have been. We have no way of knowing for certain. You appear to think that everything is black and white. We cannot assume that Phillips was correct and that Richardson was wrong. Just as we cannot assume that Richardson was correct and that Phillips waswrong. Likewise with Cadosch and Long. Investigating an historical crime isn’t neat and tidy. We weigh up the pro’s and con’s of each point and yes we can come to different interpretations. But we cannot say for certain that one interpretation is correct and another is wrong.

[FISHY1118]

It was just an exercise ... in what if we took Long and Codosch at their word with no if, buts ,or maybes ? . Then the murder of Chapman might have been a little more difficult to perpetrate. That what i was hoping to discuss but i think ill pass on it now.

[Cogidubnus]

It was just an exercise ... in what if we took Long and Codosch at their word with no if, buts ,or maybes ? . Then the murder of Chapman might have been a little more difficult to perpetrate. That what i was hoping to discuss but i think ill pass on it now.

Ok Peter...your call!

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Polly Nichols , 2.30am [ ten minute s from bucks row ] 3.45am found dead . 1 1/4 hours where was she?

Annie Chapman last seen 1.35 am, found dead 6.00am 4 hours no reported sighting, where was she ?

Catherine Eddows 1.00am [ten minutes from mitre sq] 1.44am found dead . no positive i.d since leaving police station, where was she ?

having tea and crimpets at the palace

[FISHY1118]

Now why didn't i think of that , it was so obvious , not much of a thinker hey ,

[Sleuth1888]

Tom Westcott has suggested that Nichols (I think, although it's also a possibility for the others) may have been watching an illegal boxing match which were popular in the 1888 East End, the nature of which suggests no one would come forward.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is nothing wrong in attempting to account for the movements of these women of course but we just can’t read anything into it if we can’t. This day and age of course the police would expect to be able to fill in a few more gaps. CCTV recordings, credit card and ATM usage, texts, phone calls, Tweets and other social media etc. A dirt poor East End prostitute would leave very few tracks in the sand. Let’s face it the police were hardly likely to have someone walk into a police station to admit to having sex with Annie Chapman down some back alley an hour or so before she was murdered. Trying to show that Annie being unaccounted for for 3 or 4 hours before her death somehow points to the fact that she was killed earlier and elsewhere is an exercise in futility.

[FISHY1118]

WALKED ALONG BUCK'S ROW


Second Man On The Mary Nichols Murder Scene

At around 3.45am, on the morning of August 31st, 1888, Robert Paul was walking along Buck's Row, when a man approached him and asked him to come and look at a woman who was lying in a gateway.

Given the roughness of the locality, Paul was a little apprehensive at first, but he went over and saw the body of Mary Nichols.

Later that day, he told a reporter from Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper of his experiences that morning:-

THE FATHER OF THE MURDERED WOMAN

A REMARKABLE STATEMENT


On Friday night Mr. Robert Paul, a carman, on his return from work, made the following statement to our representative. He said :-

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market. It was dark, and I was hurrying along, when I saw a man standing where the woman was. He came a little towards me, but, as I knew the dangerous character of the locality, I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about. There have been many knocked down and robbed at that spot.

The man, however, came towards me and said, "Come and look at this woman."

I went and found the woman lying on her back. I laid hold of her wrist and found that she was dead and the hands cold. It was too dark to see the blood about her. I thought that she had been outraged, and had died in the struggle.

I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw. I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead.

''The woman was so cold that she must have been dead some time, and either she had been lying there, left to die, or she must have been murdered somewhere else and carried there.''

If she had been lying there long enough to get so cold as she was when I saw her, it shows that no policeman on the beat had been down there for a long time. If a policeman had been there he must have seen her, for she was plain enough to see. Her bonnet was lying about two feet from her head."

Source: Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, Sunday, 2nd September, 1888.

On Monday, 17th September, 1888, Robert Paul appeared as a witness at the resumed inquest into the death of Mary Nichols.

The Lakes Herald published a brief report on what he had to say in its edition of Friday, 21st September, 1888:- HIS INQUEST TESTIMONY

Robert Paul, a carman, said that on the morning of the crime he left home just before a quarter to four.

He was passing up Buck's-row and saw a man standing in the middle of the road. The man touched him upon the shoulder, and said, "Come and look at this woman here."

He went and saw the woman lying right across a gateway. He felt her hands and face. They were both cold. The morning was very dark.

The other man and he agreed that the best thing to be done was to tell the first police man they met.

He arranged the clothes as well as he could. He put his hand to the woman's breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old.

He saw no one running away, nor did he notice anything whatever of a suspicious nature."

Source: The Lakes Herald, Friday, 21st September, 1888.

• I certainly wouldn't want to tell Robert Paul that it was futile, after all he was there and we cant entirely dismiss his opinion at that time .