Did Jack only kill 3?

[lynn cates]

resettled

Hello Velma. Thanks. My thinking about "MJK" (self conscious quotes) is that she was "resettled" by Special Branch (or similar). This was QUITE common at this time. (Don't know her real name.)

At any rate, she was discovered and "removed"--possibly by one who felt betrayed by her at two levels, patriotic and personal.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Velma

And I'm positing generally as Lynn does, but leaving the exit less explicit...ie Lynn's solution works, but equally she could have been seen as a loose end needing to be tidied up by Special Branch and...

Since I'm venturing into conspiracy territory, I'll go no further than say it's it is, at least, possible...

From this distance, who knows?

All the best

Dave

[DrHopper]

Hi Doc H



Pure surmise I'm afraid...and Marie Jeanette is French rather than Latin...Maria Joanna or Maria Johanna is what I'd expect to see were this the case...

Sorry!

Dave

Really?
Jeanne is the French form of Jane, as in St Jeanne-Francoise Fremiot. The simplified Latinised version of Jane is Jeanette, and Marie is, obviously, a no-brainer. I think we are in danger of romanticising the addled fantasies of a drunk and destitute prostitute in accepting she was a French actress with strong views on Irish independence.

[curious]

Hi Velma

And I'm positing generally as Lynn does, but leaving the exit less explicit...ie Lynn's solution works, but equally she could have been seen as a loose end needing to be tidied up by Special Branch and...

Since I'm venturing into conspiracy territory, I'll go no further than say it's it is, at least, possible...

From this distance, who knows?

All the best

Dave

Hi, Lynn and Dave,
Thanks, Lynn, we've discussed this in the past and I guess since you see her killer as someone who felt betrayed that might account for the very, very, very excessive mutilation.

Maybe.

But Dave, in your instance, how does it account for all that mutilation?

Thx, guys,

[Cogidubnus]

Jeanne is the French form of Jane, as in St Jeanne-Francoise Fremiot. The simplified Latinised version of Jane is Jeanette, and Marie is, obviously, a no-brainer. I think we are in danger of romanticising the addled fantasies of a drunk and destitute prostitute in accepting she was a French actress with strong views on Irish independence.

No romanticising at all I'm afraid...just the rejection of "Marie Jeanette" as a Roman Catholic Latinised baptismal name, which it simply isn't...sorry

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Velma

Quite literally total annihilation...no trace left...no clues...just like now...

All the best

Dave

[Sally]

Quite literally total annihilation...no trace left...no clues...just like now...

If 'MJK' was settled by Special Branch (or similar) then discovered and 'removed' what would be the purpose of this total annihilation? One supposes to remove all trace of the 'real' woman's identity?

But for whom? Who would have recognised her as her real self had she not been virtually dismantled? Those official chaps who had resettled her would have known who she was in any case - so a bit pointless from their perspective. And who else counted? Any co-conspirators would also have known who she was presumably - so a bit pointless from their perspective as well. And she was, in any case, recognisable enough for those who did know her as Kelly to identify her (e.g. Barnett).

Hypothetically, I can accept that an incognito spy who was outed might be in trouble; and might be done 'removed' - I mean, I've seen James Bond too, I know how it works - but why try to disguise her identity? That doesn't make sense to me really - what would the killer have to gain by that?

I think it's at least just as likely that the murder was driven by motives which were not political - although that doesn't mean it wasn't personal, of course.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Sally

The possibilities I'm keeping an open mind to (and they're no more than that in my mind) are that MJK was somehow important to SB, had been traced by the Fenians, and was once again moved on...the body in No 13 being that of an unwitting donor and mutilated to disguise the identity threat...

Or alternatively that she'd been possibly blown, and someone on high decided she WASN'T that important after all, and decided to tidy her away...eradicating her so as to remove all trace of her previous identity change...to disguise the technique/tactic in some fashion. Convoluted and overall perhaps an unlikely premise, but it's one I'm not going to close my mind to just yet!

Mind you, either way, how you then account for the morning sightings is an interesting matter...but isn't it anyway?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

political and personal

Hello Sally.

"If 'MJK' was settled by Special Branch (or similar) then discovered and 'removed' what would be the purpose of this total annihilation?"

Well, anger at betrayal might be one such motive. And obviously the perpetrator would not be of sound mind.

"One supposes to remove all trace of the 'real' woman's identity?"

Doesn't seem to fit. If this is the motive, then the pre-scenario must be faulty.

"But for whom?"

Yes. So again, this angle of approach seems to miss the mark.

"Who would have recognised her as her real self had she not been virtually dismantled?"

Perhaps the RIC? two of their chaps showed up and thought they knew what had happened.

"Those official chaps who had resettled her would have known who she was in any case - so a bit pointless from their perspective."

Absolutely.

"And who else counted? Any co-conspirators would also have known who she was presumably - so a bit pointless from their perspective as well. And she was, in any case, recognisable enough for those who did know her as Kelly to identify her (e.g. Barnett)."

Agreed. I don't see any future in the recognisibility angle.

"Hypothetically, I can accept that an incognito spy who was outed might be in trouble . . ."

Splendid. Red Jim was shot at when he was discovered.

" . . . and might be done 'removed'."

Yes. Dr. Cronin was "removed" and he was NOT a spy--only suspected of being one. Also, Pat Sheridan in Colorado was under "removal' threat for the same reason. He was "discovered."

"I mean, I've seen James Bond too, I know how it works "

You might try "Danger Man." Much more believable, if stuffy.

" . . . but why try to disguise her identity? That doesn't make sense to me really - what would the killer have to gain by that?"

Agreed. See above.

"I think it's at least just as likely that the murder was driven by motives which were not political - although that doesn't mean it wasn't personal, of course."

It is possible. But try to imagine BOTH political AND personal. Such could be the ultimate in vindictiveness.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

from on high

Hello Dave.

"The possibilities I'm keeping an open mind to (and they're no more than that in my mind) are that MJK was somehow important to SB, had been traced by the Fenians, and was once again moved on...the body in No 13 being that of an unwitting donor and mutilated to disguise the identity threat..."

Of course, such a donor must surely be, say, an orphan; else what should one do when she shows up on a missing person's list?

"Or alternatively that she'd been possibly blown, and someone on high decided she WASN'T that important after all, and decided to tidy her away...eradicating her so as to remove all trace of her previous identity change...to disguise the technique/tactic in some fashion."

Now this DOES sound like "Danger Man." Try episode, "Yesterday's Enemies." (Assuming, of course, you have McGoohan's DVD's.)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I could understand this line of enquiry if some connection had been established between Mary Kelly and the Fenian's, but to take the murder as the motivation for a suggestion of a possible connection is rather like the cart pushing the horse.

Bewildered...

Jon S.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Jon. I know what you mean. And I think such a line will be abandoned once we find a scrap of evidence confirming even a small portion of Barnett's story.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Of course, such a donor must surely be, say, an orphan; else what should one do when she shows up on a missing person's list?

Not necessarily Lynn...there's still a lot of social movement at this time, and I don't doubt a lot of disappearances too...besides, who's to match the missing person with an already identified and buried MJK?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

investigation

Hello Dave. Well, I suppose it possible. But surely there would be SOME investigation?

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

Dave and Lynn -

I am a sceptic (No, really... ) and as such admit to a 'no evidence? Chuck it in the crackpot bin' bias. Just ask Fish...

And don't get me started on conspiracies. Or should that be 'conspiracies'?

The only thing that stops me with Kelly is that she was allegedly seen in the morning of the 9th - not by a single person, but by two. In neither case is there an obvious reason for those reporting those sighthings to fabricate - so they must be explained somehow.

Of course, it is possible that both Maxwell and Lewis did lie; that they mistook another for Kelly, etc - and of course it is this very thing - the morning sightings - that has led to the plethora of conspiracy theories regarding Kelly to begin with.

But still.

It does give me pause for thought. A little bit, anyway..

There are a lot of mysteries surrounding Kellys death. Now it may of course be that there are simple, if lost, explanations for them all, if we but knew it. I also think that the fact that the case has not been solved does not logically indicate that there is another explanation other than that of the lone serial killer to account for murders - although the lack of plausible suspects (in most cases, at least) might make an alternative approach a temptation.

All things considered, l will keep an open (ish) mind, I think. Those who work hard on researching this case demonstrate that new information can come to light, even at this remove in time; so who knows what we might learn in the future?