Ripper victims were caught sleeping?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Steve,

There is not a jot of evidence to support the contention that Polly Nichols was murdered in Buck's Row.

Morning Advertiser (London), 1st September 1888

"The other theory is that the woman was murdered in a house where she had gone for an immoral purpose, and that she was killed whilst undressed, her clothes being then huddled on the body, which was afterwards conveyed out to be deposited in the street. Colour is lent to this by the comparatively small quantity of blood found on the clothes and by the fact that the clothes are not cut. If the woman was murdered on the spot where it was found it is almost impossible to believe she would not have aroused the neighbourhood by her screams, Buck's row being a street tenanted all down one side by a respectable class of people, superior to the residents of many of the surrounding streets, the other side having a blank wall bounding a warehouse."

There are other, similar, reports.

[Nic1950]

Sleeping? A possibility, but would it not be more of a task to find a woman who was asleep in a quiet area? I prefer to look at other options, for example, a cut to the throat is a very quick and effortless task with the correct blade. If they were intoxicated or looking for business then judgement would hav been virtually nil.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Steve,

There is not a jot of evidence to support the contention that Polly Nichols was murdered in Buck's Row.

Morning Advertiser (London), 1st September 1888

"The other theory is that the woman was murdered in a house where she had gone for an immoral purpose, and that she was killed whilst undressed, her clothes being then huddled on the body, which was afterwards conveyed out to be deposited in the street. Colour is lent to this by the comparatively small quantity of blood found on the clothes and by the fact that the clothes are not cut. If the woman was murdered on the spot where it was found it is almost impossible to believe she would not have aroused the neighbourhood by her screams, Buck's row being a street tenanted all down one side by a respectable class of people, superior to the residents of many of the surrounding streets, the other side having a blank wall bounding a warehouse."

There are other, similar, reports.

I believe there was similar speculation Simon about whether Eddowes was killed in Mitre Square or moved there after death. The thing that gives me pause about the idea that Polly was killed elsewhere is the next victims situation, I think its likely the backyard venue was chosen because the previous venue didnt offer enough privacy to complete the mutilations.

[Darryl Kenyon]

There is not a jot of evidence to support the contention that Polly Nichols was murdered in Buck's Row.

Baxter 22 Sep - The condition of the body appeared to prove conclusively that the deceased was killed on the exact spot in which she was found. There was not a trace of blood anywhere, except at the spot where her neck was lying, this circumstance being sufficient to justify the assumption that the injuries to the throat were committed when the woman was on the ground, whilst the state of her clothing and the absence of any blood about her legs suggested that the abdominal injuries were inflicted whilst she was still in the same position.

[Simon Wood]

Dr. Llewellyn at first believed that Polly Nichols had been murdered elsewhere and her body dumped in Buck's Row.

But the police soon disavowed him of this idea, considering it unlikely that the woman could have entered a house, been murdered, and removed to Buck's-row within a period of one hour and a quarter.

Time-frame courtesy of Emily Holland and PC Neil.

[Monty]

Well, the only victims who apparently weren't overheard as they were being murdered were Nichols and Eddowes. However, Eddowes was killed in a remote corner of a largely deserted square, and although Bucks Row was residential, Nichols was slain at the remote end of it, somewhat removed from the houses. In both cases, there is a reasonable probability that any cries simply went unnoticed.

PC Pearce and his open window?

Monty

[Monty]

Point of fact.

Police beats during the day - 30 minutes. During the evening 15 minutes.

One third of the force patrolled during the day, two thirds at night. Which meant one beat would be split between two constables.

The reason is obvious.

Monty

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

There is not a jot of evidence to support the contention that Polly Nichols was murdered in Buck's Row.

Morning Advertiser (London), 1st September 1888

"The other theory is that the woman was murdered in a house where she had gone for an immoral purpose, and that she was killed whilst undressed, her clothes being then huddled on the body, which was afterwards conveyed out to be deposited in the street. Colour is lent to this by the comparatively small quantity of blood found on the clothes and by the fact that the clothes are not cut. If the woman was murdered on the spot where it was found it is almost impossible to believe she would not have aroused the neighbourhood by her screams, Buck's row being a street tenanted all down one side by a respectable class of people, superior to the residents of many of the surrounding streets, the other side having a blank wall bounding a warehouse."

There are other, similar, reports.

An early report, many of which, including this one, were very suspect, I know I have read all of them.
It's full of journalists opinion, rather than fact.

The report about the quantity of blood found on the clothing for instance is not backed by the inquest testimonies of Spratling and Helson.

We will disagree on this Simon, there is alot of evidence that she was killed where she was found.
No problem, all will be covered in my Book, now due in April.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Dr. Llewellyn at first believed that Polly Nichols had been murdered elsewhere and her body dumped in Buck's Row.

But the police soon disavowed him of this idea, considering it unlikely that the woman could have entered a house, been murdered, and removed to Buck's-row within a period of one hour and a quarter.

Time-frame courtesy of Emily Holland and PC Neil.

Simon, yes Llewellyn did, and he later changed his mind.
Just has he did on several issues, some of his pronouncements are simply unrealistic from a medical point of view.



Steve

[Elamarna]

Point of fact.

Police beats during the day - 30 minutes. During the evening 15 minutes.

One third of the force patrolled during the day, two thirds at night. Which meant one beat would be split between two constables.

The reason is obvious.

Monty

However Monty, Neil and Thain make it very clear they were doing 30 minute beats.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Well, the only victims who apparently weren't overheard as they were being murdered were Nichols and Eddowes. However, Eddowes was killed in a remote corner of a largely deserted square, and although Bucks Row was residential, Nichols was slain at the remote end of it, somewhat removed from the houses. In both cases, there is a reasonable probability that any cries simply went unnoticed.

While it is general accepted that the attack in Bucks Row was not heard, the account of Harriet Lilley gives the possibility that it was.
However because she was not called to the inquest, it is hard to judge her account, if it was made up, has some have suggested, Baxter would no doubt have exposed it.

Steve

[Simon Wood]

Looking forward to your book, Steve.

I hope it sells by the shed-load.

[MrBarnett]

While it is general accepted that the attack in Bucks Row was not heard, the account of Harriet Lilley gives the possibility that it was.
However because she was not called to the inquest, it is hard to judge her account, if it was made up, has some have suggested, Baxter would no doubt have exposed it.

Steve

There has to be just a little doubt, doesn’t there, Steve? Baxter had an ego larger than his brain, IMHO.

I found a press report recently which claimed Buck’s Row was indeed a popular rough-sleeping spot, but it couldn’t even get Polly’s name right, and claimed she had been killed in front of a blank wall.

[Sam Flynn]

PC Pearce and his open window?

Indeed, but precious little else. That's why I said "the remote corner of a largely deserted square".

[Elamarna]

There has to be just a little doubt, doesn’t there, Steve? Baxter had an ego larger than his brain, IMHO.

I found a press report recently which claimed Buck’s Row was indeed a popular rough-sleeping spot, but it couldn’t even get Polly’s name right, and claimed she had been killed in front of a blank wall.

Yes his ego does seem to have been very large, however given how he treated the lower classes , Tomkins and Mann for example, I think if she had invented it 100% he would have exposed that.

Do you have the ref to the article you mentioned?

Steve