Stride and Chapman , same address ?

[mariab]

Thanks Steven. (Don't have SY investigates along with my here in Paris, just Sugden + The Ultimate.) “Chest injuries“ implicate a knifing I'd say. “Face injuries" could have been a simple beating.

[Steven Russell]

No, Maria. It just says "face and chest injuries". Scotland Yard Investigates is the same.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[mariab]

The A-Z, while not going into detail, mentions face and chest injuries. She was attacked on 8th December 1887 and released from Whitechapel Infirmary on 28th so one can assume that the injuries were serious.

Long hospital stay indeed. Does the A-Z (which I don't own in any of the current editions) mention what kind of chest wounds? I assume a knifing occurred?

[Steven Russell]

Steve, have you by any chance come upon any newspaper reports with info about what kind of injuries Margaret Hames sustained during her attack?

Sorry, Maria. All I have read of Hames has come from this site or the standard books. The A-Z, while not going into detail, mentions face and chest injuries. She was attacked on 8th December 1887 and released from Whitechapel Infirmary on 28th so one can assume that the injuries were serious.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Moonbegger.

Here is the thing Mr Wolf ... At Strides inquest Michel Kidney statement makes it clear that stride had been living with him for three years , give and take a few months when her bouts of drunkenness would take her of to her temporary doss house at 32 flower and dean street .. Elizabeth Tanner's statement also bares this out , even more so when she speaks of the fact that Stride left the man she was living with ( Michel Kidney ) on thursday to come and stay at our house ( 32 F+D ) . So at the inquest Kidney's address is given as 38 Dorset street .. but in the Daily News of 6th oct his address is given as 35 Dorset st ! So with all the " maybes " and " probably " and conjecture aside .. its a toss up between 35 and 38 ! either way i think it stretches the boundaries of coincidence.

Sure, I suppose you can make a case of Stride living at 35 Dorset Street and the coincidence of Chapman having lived at this same address…if you ignore what I wrote:

“there is a usually ignored question as to whether they lived on Dorset Street at all or whether this was a mix up with Devonshire.”

Several newspapers reported that at the inquest Kidney stated that he was living at 38 Dorset Street. This does not mean that he had lived at this address with Stride for the three years they were together. It just means that on the day he gave evidence at the inquest Kidney was living at that address.

Kidney, himself, told the Central News (2 October, 1888) that he and Stride lived together at “35 Devonshire Street down to five months ago,” and that they then moved to 36 Devonshire. This is supported by the evidence of Sven Olsson, of the Swedish Church, who stated at the inquest that when Stride had applied for aid in May of 1886 she gave her address as “Devonshire Street.” Catherine Lane, who knew Stride from 32 Flower and Dean Street, also stated that Stride had lived on Devonshire Street.

One newspaper report, the Daily News, therefore, doesn’t stand up against Kidney’s own statements or those of others who knew Stride. The Daily News is obviously wrong and, as I also said, “Either way, they did not live at 35 Dorset Street.”

Wolf.

[moonbegger]

Hi Moon. The killer chose that area to kill in, so it stands to reason that the women he killed would live in that area, does it not? None of them (except Kelly) had homes. If you went to the downtown of a big city and knocked off some homeless people at random, would you find it coincidental or common sense if they could all be traced to staying at some of the same shelters, or eating at the same soup kitchens?

If you're looking for any common denominator, it would be Pearly Poll. And I don't know or necessarily believe that this means anything, but it's always nagging at the back of my brain.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom ,
When you say "Area the killer chose to kill in " did you mean the densely populated square mile of whitechapel (witch is actually quite vast ) or the hundred yards or so in which his victims all seemed to live , and where he picked them from ? I get all of the above , but the fact that they all lived only yards from each other in the heart of whitechapel , and in the case of , Stride , Eddows , and Nichols who were found a considerable distance from
their home turf ( or cobbles for me raises a eyebrow or two , we are talking thousands of prostitutes all living within this grim square mile .. so why, oh why, did not even just one of these apparently random victims happen to live in one of the many other poverty stricken streets throughout the whole of whitechapel . i was also wondering was it then as it is today in whitechapel , where street hawkers , prostitutes , pimps , drug dealers have their own patch , and if your caught operating on someone else's ground .. it could be big trouble .. witch would raise a few more questions in regards to Liz , Kate , and Polly .

cheers .
Moonbegger .

[mariab]

If Pearly Poll did know Emma Smith, it's not unlikely she would have known Margaret Hames. If so, she could have saved a lot of people a lot of time looking for Fairy Fay.

Steve, have you by any chance come upon any newspaper reports with info about what kind of injuries Margaret Hames sustained during her attack?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Tom

I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers.

From The Star

The journalist was in Flower and Dean Street a day or two after the double event.

While Toby was speaking a woman came along with an armful of walking sticks, each one showing that they were swordsticks of a cheap but dangerous pattern. "Here you are, now," she cried, "sixpence for a swordstick. That's the sort to do for 'em." The man of news was astounded, but Toby only smiled. "Oh!" said he; "she does a good business, she do. She's been down in Berner-street all day, and sold a lot of 'em."

[Steven Russell]

Don't forget the poisoned umbrella that killed Georgi Markov (sp?).

If Pearly Poll did know Emma Smith, it's not unlikely she would have known Margaret Hames. If so, she could have saved a lot of people a lot of time looking for Fairy Fay.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[tji]

Hi Tom

I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers. I've wondered the same thing myself, but I'm not sure that this isn't just something we got from Bond films.

I am almost sure there was,, they were known as either a sword stick or cane-swords. I also remember seeing an illustration somewhere of a man with one.


Tracy

[mariab]

Don't forget that Abberline was given a walking stick upon retirement. They were fashion accessories for men.

Wow, didn't know that, and by today's standards is sounds offensive. (Why not a wheelchair?!)

I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers. I've wondered the same thing myself, but I'm not sure that this isn't just something we got from Bond films.

Or from Clockwork orange.
But lately I was reading somewhere about a stick like that (with an inserted dagger), British related and crime related. Wish I'd remember where it was.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria,

Don't forget that Abberline was given a walking stick upon retirement. They were fashion accessories for men. I'm sure Le Grand didn't carry a skinny stick, since he clearly used it for intimidation purposes. I'm not sure that there were actual walking sticks produced in the LVP with hidden daggers. I've wondered the same thing myself, but I'm not sure that this isn't just something we got from Bond films.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Weird fashion statement! "My walking stick is Armani, yours came from Walmart." Lol.

I was expecting the one Le Grand used to be thicker, perhaps similar to a baseball bat. What old people use today as a walking stick can be broken in 2 pieces with one hand.
Of course there are those "walking sticks" which feature a dagger on one end, for self protection.

[Tom_Wescott]

I believe she was also living at 35 Dorset Street.

Maria,

Walking sticks would be a fashion statement, as well as reasonable self-protection for the average guy. Naturally, criminals would also use them as weapons, probably thicker than the average walking stick. I would imagine Le Grand's umbrella - that he used to beat women over the head with - was probably such a thick stick disguised as an umbrella. The average Victorian umbrella would likely break on first strike, and certainly wouldn't inflict pain or injury.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious]

She definitely knew Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman, almost certainly knew Emma Smith (her next door neighbor) and probably knew Mary Kelly. Also, it bothers me that she tried to work Emma Smith stuff into her Tabram fantasy, such as calling Martha Tabram 'Emma' when no one else did, and saying that she (Poll) got into a quarrel with her corporal right before the two couples parted, and the soldier hit her with a walking stick. She was also best buds with the woman who beat up Annie Chapman not long before Chapman turned up dead. Then she and this woman go to the police saying they know who the Ripper is and he lives not far from where Polly Nichols was killed. This lead was followed through but clearly led to nothing. Do I think Poll was involved in the murders somehow? Not really. All high profile cases seem to have some nut like this about, but I still wonder sometimes. Anyway, I do think she probably personally knew half or more of the Whitechapel murder victims, so for someone looking for a connection between any of the victims, Poll is your best bet.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

WOW. How is it thought she might have known Kelly?

Thanks