Bruises on Victims, Is This JtR's Identifying Mark?

[curious]

My point is departure is depth of/number of neck cuts.

Cheers.
LC

Mine too. This cut appears tentative, not practiced and sure.

However, there is probably a reason Stride was considered a Ripper victim, could it have been the marks on her shoulders? (and we'll never be able to say for sure)

Maybe not, though, when looking at all the murders Wayne Williams of Atlanta is considered to have committed, it seems obvious to me that there had to have been more than one killer, but the authorities were thrilled to hang all of them on Williams to get the case off their desks.

Anyway, working at a paper where editors sometimes edit in mistakes and the writers don't always get a chance to read the story before it goes to press makes me consider that one quote seriously . . . .

[Malcolm X]

is JTR always going to cut a throat in the same way, or will this vary, especially if this location is far riskier and she has to be killed far quicker than the others.

it's who the killer seems to be/ location chosen/ theory etc, that swings it in JTRs favour, rather than what's seen.

simply because, without mutilations this doesn't look like JTR at all, no of course it doesn't, but this matters little, because everything else does

.

[lynn cates]

old theory

Hello Velma. Well, some mysterious murders had been committed but not solved.

I recall that, in "Lloyds" the next day, the interruption theory was already being espoused.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reasoning

Hello Malcolm. Ah, but if you push that reasoning very far, you will need to check ladies killed by gunshot and poison.

Who does the killer seem to be?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

is JTR always going to cut a throat in the same way, or will this vary, especially if this location is far riskier and she has to be killed far quicker than the others.


.

Hi, Malcolm,

Then would he not have concentrated on a deep, effective wound?

A practiced hand is a practiced hand, accustomed to digging deep, and not a tentative hand that does not slice even one side all the way.

Not to mention that the two immediately before Stride had been strangled . . .

I don't really think "everything else" does look like JtR -- that is why I wonder if the marks on her chest are not terrible important . . . .

The daring and boldness of the killer and Stride's age and profession fit the earlier deaths but not the body.

So what do those marks on Stride's shoulders mean? Was this a first, or had the doctor seen them on two other occasions – as in on other bodies?

[Wickerman]

However, if the doctor was actually referring to marks he had seen on other bodies, this could be the reason the authorities believed all the murders to be by the same hand.

Hi Curious.
Yes, thats what I initially thought you meant, but which other bodies?

Dr. Phillips was not involved in the Tabram & Nichols cases, Chapman was his first.
Phillips was consulted on the Eddowes case and bruises were looked for and duly noted. No mention of bruises around the collar bone on Eddowes.

This I think serves to enforse the interpretation offered by Lynn, Dr. Phillips had only seen those bruises once before on Annie Chapman.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Hi Curious.
Yes, thats what I initially thought you meant, but which other bodies?

Dr. Phillips was not involved in the Tabram & Nichols cases, Chapman was his first.
Phillips was consulted on the Eddowes case and bruises were looked for and duly noted. No mention of bruises around the collar bone on Eddowes.

This I think serves to enforse the interpretation offered by Lynn, Dr. Phillips had only seen those bruises once before on Annie Chapman.

Regards, Jon S.

Thanks, Jon,

I should have thought to check to see who the doctors were on the other murders, but didn't think of it.

Think you and Lynn are right.

[lynn cates]

consensus

Hello Jon, Velma. So we have reached a consensus?

Hope it's contagious.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Lets not jump to any conclusions now....

[Errata]

But the fact that he was watching them makes them important, doesn't it?

Would he not have recognized the discoloration from the dye in her clothing as being just that?

...

And I read in some other reports, that the marks were thought to be pressure marks from hands where Stride had been grabbed on both shoulders.

I can't say for sure that he would have recognized them. My father is a doctor and the first couple of time he saw them on me he thought they were terrible bruises. I had to show it to him in direct bright light so he could see the fading at the edges of the stains.

They were described as pressure marks by Blackwell, but they wouldn't have been from hands. Pressure marks come from sustained pressure, like the lines you get on you from your waistband or your watch. Or the odd hand print on your face when you wake up. But the smaller the point of contact, the faster it marks. And the shoulders were described as "equally marked". That really sounds like marks from clothing. I mean, it would take about 30 minutes for the killer to make any lasting pressure mark with his hands. But it would only take minutes for him to imprint the seams of her bodice into her shoulders. But pressure marks aren't blue. In living people they are a pretty livid red, in dead people they are the same color as the rest of the skin.

The bluish discoloration is described as being on the front, both shoulders but more the right, under the clavicle and across the front. Now she was found on her left side, which might explain why more the right shoulder than the left. But the description of the placement of the discoloration matches perfectly with the neckline of a bodice. Which is not only where the dye marks on us were, but also the pressure marks. Well, ours were a couple of inches lower, since the necklines of the Victorian era and the modern renaissance festival aren't exactly in the same place.

I can't swear they were dye marks. But she was out in the rain that night. And they weren't bruises. Bruises change. And nothing on a corpse should be blue, unless they were either profoundly cyanotic or poisoned. And then it's never marks on the skin. I think it likely he didn't immediately recognize the discoloration. And the Inquest was the day after the murder. He wouldn't have had time to monitor the marks and see if they broke down the way a bruise does. I think he mentioned them because he wasn't sure if they were going to end up being significant, and I would imagine by the time she was released for burial he realized that they in fact were not significant.

[FrankO]

I think it likely he didn't immediately recognize the discoloration. And the Inquest was the day after the murder. He wouldn't have had time to monitor the marks and see if they broke down the way a bruise does. I think he mentioned them because he wasn't sure if they were going to end up being significant, and I would imagine by the time she was released for burial he realized that they in fact were not significant.

Hi Errata,

Blackwell did have time to monitor the marks, or at least, what he stated at the inquest on 5 October implies so. And he was clear on it not being bruises or abrasions:
“There were what we call pressure marks on the shoulders, which became better defined some time after death. There were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasure of the skin.” (Morning Advertiser of 6 October)

“They were what we call pressure marks. At first they were very obscure, but subsequently they became very evident. They were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion.” (Daily News, 6 October)

All the best,
Frank

[curious]

Hello Jon, Velma. So we have reached a consensus?

Hope it's contagious.

Cheers.
LC

on this, perhaps, but let's not get too "cheers"ful.

Actually, in some ways I am glad. I find that it re-enforces my original conclusion that Stride's murder was by a different hand.

I would actually like it to go back to one murderer for all, but that is not what my brain tells me that the facts say . . . that's why I keep turning everything inside-out.

[lynn cates]

wish

Hello Velma.

"Actually, in some ways I am glad. I find that it re-enforces my original conclusion that Stride's murder was by a different hand."

Can't disagree with that.

"I would actually like it to go back to one murderer for all, but that is not what my brain tells me that the facts say . . . "

Agree here too. I wish it were a toff in a topper. But you know the saying--"If wishes were horses then beggars would ride."

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

And nothing on a corpse should be blue, unless they were either profoundly cyanotic or poisoned. .

Hi, Errata,
Thanks for your input on this.

You mention cyanotic -- the blueness from lack of oxygen.

Some time ago, like 2-3 years, someone brought up the suggestion that Stride had died from what was basically a heart attack, but the suddenness of it had a separate name I don't recall, which accounted for her still clutching a packet of Cachous in her hand.

People are particularly pale when they die like this, and 2-3 people mentioned how pale Stride was.

Could the marks be any indication of that?

[curious]

Hi Errata,

Blackwell did have time to monitor the marks, or at least, what he stated at the inquest on 5 October implies so. And he was clear on it not being bruises or abrasions:
“There were what we call pressure marks on the shoulders, which became better defined some time after death. There were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasure of the skin.” (Morning Advertiser of 6 October)

“They were what we call pressure marks. At first they were very obscure, but subsequently they became very evident. They were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion.” (Daily News, 6 October)

All the best,
Frank

Hi, Frank,
Thanks for finding this and posting it.

Any ideas yourself on what could have made the marks?