Suicidal tendencies?

[K-453]

It is possible at least some of the victims went with the Ripper although he looked suspicious to them - thinking, what the heck, at least it will be quick ...

They could have been too depressed, too fed up, to care much. Let's not forget how hard and horrible their lifes were.

Their future would have been even more horrible. I read about old, homeless women on the streets of Victorian London. They were so weak from hunger they could only crawl on hands and knees.

These were the prospects the Ripper victims had, and they surely knew, seeing those old women everyday on the streets. "It is either the river or the ripper for me ..."

So the Ripper may did not have to be too convincing and charming.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT blaming the victims here. I'm not saying they happily took this 'way out'. It rather shows how desperate they were.

[Adam Went]

I wouldn't read too much into their actions, K, the most likely scenario is surely much simpler than many would like to believe. And that is simply that they had the chance to attract a customer - regardless of whether he approached them or vice versa - and make a few pennies to buy a bed at a doss or, perhaps more likely, another drink or two to get a bit more written off, and took the opportunity without giving too much thought to who the man was or what his intentions might be.

The life of a prostitute was and is full of danger, and sadly for these women they would all have dealt with dodgy customers in the past, it was just a risk of the job which they accepted every time they entered the street.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Barnaby]

Extremely unlikely. Much more likely is that the victims behaved rationally and weighed the near certain few pennies that could be used for a bed or a glass of gin with the highly improbable possibility that their john was jack the ripper. The victims were simply unlucky.

[K-453]

... and took the opportunity without giving too much thought to who the man was or what his intentions might be.

Not at the height of the Ripper scare, Adam. There was quite some hysteria going on.

The life of a prostitute was and is full of danger, and sadly for these women they would all have dealt with dodgy customers in the past, it was just a risk of the job which they accepted every time they entered the street.

Accepting Jack the Ripper?

The fear of him had a different quality than the fear of 'normal' thugs. He was not only a man of flesh and blood, but also some kind of ghost, a devil. Getting into his hands was getting into the hands of the devil.

This lasts until today, by the way, and is part of the case's fascination. Had Jack been caught and turned out to be some not-too-bright drunkard who badly needed some soap, that would have lessened the fascination, wouldn't it?

Because of their hard life, prostitutes surely had some 'social sense'. They learned to read body language carefully - they had to - and knew pretty quickly what kind of person a client was. Will he get brutal? Or start to act funny?

It is possible some of the women had a suspicion who their last client was. Not in the sense it was fully conscious to them. I'm rather talking of this tiny voice in the back of our heads we never listen to - and later regret it.

Nevertheless, although not conscious, it was a decision not to listen to this voice. And that shows a lot of desperation.

[Adam Went]

K:

In order to understand the actions of the prostitutes you must not look necessarily at the women themselves but at the circumstances in which they lived - or I should say, survived. Day to day living was a struggle, often they didn't have a bed, or if they had a bed they hardly had anything to eat - they regularly had no choice but to go out into the streets and solicit themselves in order to make the money to pay for these things, though unfortunately more often than not the profits ended up being spent on alcohol, which you see even within the canonical victims.

It's true that some prostitutes fled the streets in the immediate aftermath of a JTR murder, but they couldn't do that forever, and within a few days or a week they were back at it again. If they had alcohol in their system, their decision making was affected anyway.

For the record, I do think that JTR possessed some kind of surface charm or ability to get on well with the ladies - the witness descriptions by the likes of Long, Lawende, Hutchinson and possibly James Brown throughout the various murders seems to indicate that.

But the point is that a prostitute in the condition these women were in had to take the chance to earn a few pennies whenever and wherever they could, an opportunity missed might be one lost forever....

Cheers,
Adam.

[K-453]

Adam, you got me wrong ...

They wanted to earn those pennies because they wanted to survive.
Going with Jack would mean the sudden end of all surviving.

Well, they went with him, obviously. And you're surely right about the reasons why they did.

But what was going on in their minds then? I just think every prostitute back in autumn 1888 thought at least briefly about the Ripper each time she took a client with her. And they watched the men if they behaved odd. That's at least what I would have done in their place.

[Errata]

But what was going on in their minds then? I just think every prostitute back in autumn 1888 thought at least briefly about the Ripper each time she took a client with her. And they watched the men if they behaved odd. That's at least what I would have done in their place.

Yeah, but how observant are they going to be if they are drunk, or have the shakes, or haven't slept for 18 hours, or are starving? And more to the point, what ISN'T odd about a john? Most are nervous and shifty. They are doing something illegal after all. They will take pains not to be seen or get caught. Plus theres a reason these guys use prostitutes, and it's not because they have money to blow. Social skills are not typically their forte. Anyone who solicits a prostitute, whether to have sex with her or to kill her is going to be odd. He will act in a suspicious manner. It's the nature of the beast.

[Adam Went]

K:

Errata has got it absolutely spot on. No doubt some of Jack's victims would have recognised the threat he posed during that autumn, but it was just what they had to do in order to survive, they had nothing and nobody else they could fall back on, at least not for any length of time or security. Look at MJK and Joe Barnett. Joe had no work, couldn't give Mary any money, she was horribly in rental arrears, so what else was there to do? She had to go out - some victims had been virtually disowned by their own families, or had little or no contact with them.

You must remember that all of these women had been working the streets for years, you can bet they knew exactly what to expect and the risks that they were taking. Annie Chapman, for instance, was a very sick woman anyway and likely in the last stages of her life, but still had no option but to go out.

It is very, very sad but it shouldn't be turned into something it's not.

Cheers,
Adam.

[kensei]

Polly Nicholls- She tells someone it won't be long before she gets her doss money because "Look what a jolly bonnet I've got." In spite of her gloomy situation, shortly before her death she is smiling and making an optimistic joke.

Annie Chapman- Of all the victims, with her health the way it was, she is perhaps the only one I would consider suicidal tendencies to be a possibility, yet suicide is something one can do oneself any time yet she was out until dawn painted the sky desperately trying to earn one more penny. That shows at least a glimmer of hope.

Liz Stride- A schemer, a conwoman, dishonest and opportunistic and recently out of an abusive relationship. She would have been collecting herself and dusting herself off and thinking about her next move, not about taking an easy way out.

Kate Eddowes- Of all people to be considered as suicidal, surely she would have to be ranked as the least likely. She was known as someone who could always find a laugh even in the bleakest of situations and she had a man who loved her, a common law husband she was committed to.

Mary Kelly- Her financial situation was desperate, but her love life still held hope. Her and Joe were not officially broken up, but only "on a break" and he was still visiting her and sometimes giving her money. She probably held out hope of getting back together, and was out doing whatever she could to earn enough money to keep on going. And she was young, and she'd experienced some level of adventure in her life. The full weight of many downtrodden years spent in the East End might not have fully settled upon her quite yet.

I'll add Martha Tabram- she was out drunkenly partying with a friend when she met her slayer. I just don't think choosing an easy way out was on any of these womens' minds.

[K-453]

You all got me wrong. I don't blame you. It is difficult to explain what I mean.

Yeah, but how observant are they going to be if they are drunk, or have the shakes, or haven't slept for 18 hours, or are starving?

Looking for clients in such a state is playing with one's life anyway. Especially in the case of drunkenness. That's paralyzing one's attention on purpose.
Yes, they did that all the time, without the Ripper already.

It was double-sided: Risking their lifes to survive ...

Social skills are not typically their forte. Anyone who solicits a prostitute, whether to have sex with her or to kill her is going to be odd.

Not necessarily, many men who visit prostitutes are pretty normal. Or odd in the normal way?
What about a serial killer who is - oddly odd?
That's what I mean. Someone who is a tad bit different than the usual types of johns.

[K-453]

Polly Nicholls- She tells someone it won't be long before she gets her doss money because "Look what a jolly bonnet I've got." In spite of her gloomy situation, shortly before her death she is smiling and making an optimistic joke.

She was lonely and broke, and it seems to me, it was rather desperation than party mood that made her get terribly drunk this evening. Her joke also sounds rather desperate to me, but ok, we don't really know.

Annie Chapman- Of all the victims, with her health the way it was, she is perhaps the only one I would consider suicidal tendencies to be a possibility, yet suicide is something one can do oneself any time yet she was out until dawn painted the sky desperately trying to earn one more penny. That shows at least a glimmer of hope.

Not everybody who is desperate takes a rope or poison or shoots a bullet through their heads. Many rather wait till it's over by itself.
Let's also not forget people were more religious back then. Someone who committed suicide did not go to heaven.
Annie and the others surely had a difficult relationship to religion, but I don't think any of them was a convinced atheist. In some way, they still were religious.
Yes, you're right about that glimmer of hope. Hope to go to heaven - after some purgatory - hope to live another day ...
Also the strong belief really bad things always happen to other people.
But a glimmer of hope and a doubted belief don't make happiness ...

Liz Stride

Well, in Liz' case I think she was victim of a blitz style attack and did not see her killer come at all.

Kate Eddowes- Of all people to be considered as suicidal, surely she would have to be ranked as the least likely.

I ranked her as least likely, too. But who knows? She was broke, too. More or less homeless. Had to prostitute herself.
Being jolly can be a fassade, a shield against the world. Do we know what was behind?

Mary Kelly- ... The full weight of many downtrodden years spent in the East End might not have fully settled upon her quite yet.

But she still had more to loose than the others. Her youth, her beauty, her own room. Maybe she was even more scared than the others. Maybe she did not look like she was, but again, do we know what was really going on in her mind?

Well, Martha Tabram - whether she was a Ripper victim or not, she was murdered before the Ripper scare set in. The same still goes for Polly Nicholls.


I'm not saying these women were planning consciously suicide. They were clinging to life - but at the same time were deeply dissappointed, terrified, scared by their life. If not, they would have been extremely cold-blooded.

I'm saying, they found themselves alone in a dark street with a john who was odd in an odd way and could be Jack the Ripper. They could have started a fuss with screaming, hitting and trying to run away. Maybe it would have saved their lifes. But this guy was strong and quick, and after the scare had set in, Jack the Ripper had a reputation for being merciless and very brutal. Maybe he even looked threatening, who knows?

So they knew they had a chance, but it was small.
And they thought: What the heck!, and threw the chance away. I mean, they were paralyzed from hopelessness, and this kept them from fighting.

I'm STILL not blaming the victims.

[Errata]

So they knew they had a chance, but it was small.
And they thought: What the heck!, and threw the chance away. I mean, they were paralyzed from hopelessness, and this kept them from fighting.

I'm STILL not blaming the victims.

Suicide doesn't really work that way. The survival instinct is the only one we have, and it is insanely strong. People who decide to kill themselves are extraordinarily protective of that decision. To the point that there have been a number of cases of people actively planning their own deaths who meet with some accident or become a crime victim and fight like hell to survive so that they can end their lives in the manner that they choose. It's obsessive. If someone attacks you, you react to prevent it. End of story. Your body simply does not allow you to lie back passively and be murdered.

[Adam Went]

What you've got to remember again here, K, is that all of these women had been working the streets in some capacity for years and years. It wasn't as if they had recently come down in the world and had been forced into it as a last means just in recent months, and contemplated suicide as the easy way out. All of them except for Mary were in their 40's and had been soliciting for some considerable time, despite all having a glimmer of hope of leading a better life in their earlier days.

They were far from alone, there was thousands upon thousands of women who either were forced or chose to live the same lifestyle they did, whether it was as a full time occupation or simply on a casual basis to top up a low income or a sick/passed away husband or whatever.

So why would autumn 1888 be the time that these women would choose in particular for suicide? What's different? I know of no reports of them exhibiting particularly suicidal tendencies in their lives, a woman simply had to do what they had to do in those days before equal rights and the like came along.

Agree with the above posts that the most likely candidate for a suicide would be Annie Chapman, based solely on her increasingly bleak situation in terms of age and health.

Cheers,
Adam.

[K-453]

Geez, I wrote an answer, but then I accidentally kicked my computer, it went bing and everything was gone.

Anyway, I said already everything there is to say in the posts above.