Prostitutes: Money or love first?

[Tom_Wescott]

You mean that when her fellow lodgers see her, she's fresh from the Queen's Head pub, then when Best & Gardner see her she's drinking inside a pub, then when Marshall sees her, she's standing with a man outside the George IV pub? Yes, i'd say it's absurd to think that she had not been drinking, particularly given the fact that she was an alcoholic with a police record.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

And the fact that none of the victims were found with any cash on their persons says to me that the Ripper took the time to get what he could after cutting the throat and before beginning the mutilations.

Actually, he took their money before he killed them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Stride's stomach was tested for malt liquor...I repeat, malt liquor. She could have been drunk off her ass, just not with malt liquor.

What I've been saying is that she might have been a bit drunk, obviously not as drunk as Nichols and MJK. As an alcoholic, she might have taken a good while to get real drunk. And she could have only drunk beer.

Actually, he took their money before he killed them.

I don't buy too much stock into the robbery before assault scenario. Especially with Stride it doesn't fit, as the cachous speak for a blitz attack. Also your suggestion about the cachous having stuck on her fingers when she allegedly fished inside her pocket for money doesn't fit, Tom, cuz in this case the buttons found intact inside of one of her pockets would have been found loose on the ground around her instead.

[Barnaby]

Maybe they start doing it for love, but very quickly it becomes all about the money. Oh wait, I missed the point of this thread and am just bitter about marriage.

[mariab]

Yeah, I too have been wincing over the thread's flowery title. Possibly the reason why it hasn't attracted more experienced people, esp. medicinally. I'm still not clear how one can detect alcohol inside of a stomach hours after digestion has hit, cuz alcohol gets absorbed much quicker than food.

[Adam Went]

Tom:

You mean that when her fellow lodgers see her, she's fresh from the Queen's Head pub, then when Best & Gardner see her she's drinking inside a pub, then when Marshall sees her, she's standing with a man outside the George IV pub? Yes, i'd say it's absurd to think that she had not been drinking, particularly given the fact that she was an alcoholic with a police record.

So just because she got seen at or near a pub means that she must have been trashed? That's a ridiculous statement. People DO go to pubs but choose not to drink alcohol, or not drink at all. Especially in Liz's case when she is, in all likelihood, soliciting, and a pub on the weekend would be an obvious location to hang around for her intentions - just like she was hanging around the IWMEC as the members started to filter out later that night. Nothing suspicious going on there.

Furthermore the Queen's Hea incident was about 7 hours before she was killed, so i'm not sure how that's even relevant. We already know her condition from that excursion from her fellow lodgers and her own landlady.

No doubt Stride didn't mind a drink but I think September 29/30 was different. In fact I would go so far as to say that she was the exact antithesis to Catherine Eddowes that night.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Adam,

Crack heads might choose to go to crack houses and not get high, but I haven't heard of it happening. Clearly, I'm not as streetwise as you.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Elizabeth Stride was probably drinking earlier in the night. If she was in the Bricklayer's Arms when Best and Garner reported seeing her, she would have been kicked out if she was not drinking with someone because the owner could lose his license if outright soliciting was suspected to be happening in his place. Having a drink with a man provided a cover for such activity; especially since it was raining cats and dogs at that time and she couldn't do the usual thing and strike up a deal in the street.

I suspect that by the time P.C. Smith and others saw her she had run out of money and luck on what had been a miserable night and any visible effects of alcohol had worn off and the residue was no longer in her stomach.

Her presence in front of the IWMEC was probably a last ditch effort to salvage something out of the night and either get a drink from someone entering or leaving the club or, at least, raise her doss money.

[Barnaby]

Stride's stomach was tested for malt liquor...I repeat, malt liquor. She could have been drunk off her ass, just not with malt liquor.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Forgive my ignorance. Do you know how this was done? What test was performed? Up to this point I had just assumed that all they could do was some sort of smell test to determine if there was alcohol in the stomach/small intestine.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Barnaby. A microscope could have been employed to look for grapes as well poorly ground hops or whatever other ingredients are in cheap alcohol such as malt liquor.

Regarding Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms, she arrived with the man she was seen with, and apparently made no move to speak to any others, so was not soliciting (as she had already done so). This is part of the reason these girls waited OUTSIDE pubs.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

A microscope could have been employed to look for grapes as well poorly ground hops or whatever other ingredients are in cheap alcohol such as malt liquor.

Wow, so the Victorians could already conduct histological examinations? Well, they used microscopes, so I'm not sure what I'm so surprised for.

Can anyone suggest a book about Victorian medicine, pref. post mortem? Otherwise I think I know just whom to ask, the guy at the Anatomy Museum at the Uni. of Lyon, where I was about a month ago, looking for more sources on Lacassagne. He knew the entire history of forensic medicine.

[Adam Went]

Tom:

Crack heads might choose to go to crack houses and not get high, but I haven't heard of it happening. Clearly, I'm not as streetwise as you.

Pretty strange comparison to draw. I often go to the pub and only have one or two drinks, or sometimes nothing at all. Not much has changed in the pub scene from 1888 to now.

Hunter:

It's certainly possible that Liz had been drinking lightly earlier that evening, but from everything we know of her from that night, she was far from being the wreck that Catherine Eddowes had been earlier in the night. We've been through all of this so many times recently that I begin to consider smacking my head against a wall, alcohol does not leave the system as quickly as one might assume it does, especially if the person is not eating and/or has medical issues.

The fact that it was a rainy night was evidently no deterrent for her and many others to be on the streets that night - if she was indoors and specifically inside a pub, it was most likely because she was intent on soliciting and increasing on her current savings of sixpence, as opposed to an intention to get wasted.


Cheers,
Adam.

[Hunter]

Hi Adam,

I don't think we're in that much disagreement here. Stride did not exhibit traits of intoxication to any of the witnesses who may have seen her in the hour preceding her death and Dr. Phillips' testimony may substantiate that there had not been any recent intake of, at least a malt beverage and there was some food in her stomach. The rain finally stopped not long after she was seen leaving the Bricklayer's Arms with a man. Whether or not the rain hampered the usual Saturday night activities, Stride's clothing was reported as not being wet so she must have been indoors or had some shelter available until the rain ceased. The crepe bonnet that she and many of her class wore was very fragile and protection of such a prized possession would have been of great importance. It was, also to some degree, her calling card. You may remember that Blackwell noted what she was by the way she was dressed.

Stride- and, indeed, most of these women- was probably a binge drinker. She had been at the Magistrate's court 7 times in 3 years for drunkenness and solicitation. Like most inhabitants of the district, however, there would be times when alcohol would be consumed on a more moderate level and probably every day depending on the money they had and their circumstances. They were able to function well because it had been their practice all of their lives and a certain tolerance had been built; unless, on occasion, when stronger spirits, such as gin, were consumed in quantity. Once they reached a tipping point, consumption of more alcohol would take precedent- even over the need for shelter.

But, I agree, based on what information we have, Stride did not seem to be in that condition on that particular night.

[Tom_Wescott]

Pretty strange comparison to draw. I often go to the pub and only have one or two drinks, or sometimes nothing at all. Not much has changed in the pub scene from 1888 to now.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Stride was an alcoholic who had appeared something like 20 times before the magistrate in two years. When an alcoholic prostitute is seen at no less than 3 pubs in one night, with men spending money on her and her own change in her pocket, I'd say it's a safe bet she'd been drinking.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Hunter:

I agree that we're thinking along the same path but perhaps just interpreting things a little differently. There's no doubt at all that Stride had alcohol issues in the past and, like most women of her class, had been a habitual drinker.

However, it would seem even from her very actions that night that she was intent on something different. She had taken particular care of her appearance, had worked earlier that day and earnt some money, and as we've said, was in a better condition than might be expected that night. Without trying to sound like a romanticist, it might well be that Stride was making a genuine attempt to get part of her life back on track when she headed out that evening. At least it's what I would like to believe.

I think we also need to be careful about the definition of an alcoholic. Some alcoholics are able to avoid it under normal circumstances, but if they have just a taste of it then they can't stop themselves.

Whatever the case, as we seem to agree on, it's a fair bet from what we know of Stride that evening that she was close to sober - the struggle she put up against her attacker as witnessed by Schwartz would also indicate that she had her faculties about her, unlike other victims.

Tom:

You're trying to make assumptions about Stride on the night of her death based on events which had happened in years past. This isn't fair, nor is it historically accurate. Anybody who looks at the known evidence from that night, both pre and post mortem, can get a pretty good idea of the activities that Liz was undertaking, or lack thereof - whether they know what they are talking about or not. (Says the one who likened alcohol consumption to crack smoking.)

Cheers,
Adam.