Prostitutes: Money or love first?

[Adam Went]

Maria:

A lot might depend on circumstances as well, such as if the killer had time to search through the belongings of his victims. I'm not sure this is the case with Liz Stride though as everything in her scenario seems to be quite rushed, so it could even be a worthwhile consideration that BS Man, presuming he was not her killer and Pipeman was, robbed her of the sixpence and/or any other money she had with her when he attacked her on the street as Schwartz described. But you may disagree with that as I know you have some alternative views forming on Schwartz.

I think we are all in agreement though that robbery was not a prime objective in the killings, and rightly so. If the killer was of a slightly better off/'shabby genteel' station of life anyway, as we are regularly led to believe, he would have no need to steal the few pennies that a poor woman might have been lucky enough to be carrying on her. The organs were the souvenirs, not the coins.

K-453:

No?
She spent the early evening with some woman from her lodging house at a pub - and was seen entering a pub at 11 o'clock with a man.
I've read somewhere, 'three pence was the price of a large glass of gin', so sixpence could have easily been spent until 1 o'clock, and Liz was quite drunk.

The woman from her lodging house who she was at the pub with was actually her landlady, the one and the same who had given her sixpence for cleaning the rooms in the first place. This was much, much earlier on, like at around 6 pm, so a full 7 hours before she was actually murdered. And she still had the sixpence after this anyway because she was seen with it by fellow lodgers when she returned from the pub before going out again.

She was not described as being intoxicated by any of the many witnesses who saw her that night, and the fact that she was seen at a pub later that night would perhaps indicate only that she was soliciting. Furthermore no alcohol was found in her system at the post-mortem.

So the sixpence can't have just vanished.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Adam,
Though I have my doubts about Schwartz' testimony, at this point (where research is still ongoing) I wouldn't go as far as to suggest that no BS ever existed. :-) By the by, I'm currently ordering specific AF issues from N.Y. which I'm hoping that they could perhaps contain ads about the anarchist orator Schwartz' appearances (at the Russian Library on Church Lane and at the Liberty Hall, and I know the exact weeks in which he spoke), and JUST the ordering of the issues might take up until mid next week. This process is sloooow.

She was not described as being intoxicated by any of the many witnesses who saw her that night, and the fact that she was seen at a pub later that night would perhaps indicate only that she was soliciting. Furthermore no alcohol was found in her system at the post-mortem.

I haven't educated myself yet about Victorian methods for detecting alcohol, but I suspect that it was done by simple sniffing. By the by, I've been told that alcohol is also olfactorily detected in the blood of a dead body, if blood has flown.
I agree that Stride was solliciting, but even if she did not appear intoxicated, as an alcoholic she might have drunk quite a bit without showing it. Clearly though she wasn't as hammered as Nichols and MJK, otherwise the witnesses would have reported this.

[ianincleveland]

im wondering if when hed paid them up front,he gave them more than the going rate and the women hid the money for safekeeping and as they had their backs to him putting the cash in their secret hiding place ,he cut their throats and after hed done butchering he calmly robbed them off the pennys

[K-453]

im wondering if when hed paid them up front,he gave them more than the going rate

I wondered about that, too - it could be appealing to their greed (or rather: need), or making himself looking clumsy. (Shy guy does not know the going rate, something like this ...)

and as they had their backs to him putting the cash in their secret hiding place ,he cut their throats

The blood splatters rather indicate he cut their throats while they were lying on the ground.

[K-453]

I think Jack would have been quite happy to pay up front, as he was able to recover whatever he paid out anyway.

He could not be sure of that. What if the woman led him to a place that was not safe enough? Could he ask for his money back then?

It is possible he lost a lot of money due to his ... little hobby.

Hmm ... maybe he robbed his victims because he was broke because of that?

[ianincleveland]

I wondered about that, too - it could be appealing to their greed (or rather: need), or making himself looking clumsy. (Shy guy does not know the going rate, something like this ...)



The blood splatters rather indicate he cut their throats while they were lying on the ground.

He could well have thrown them to the ground as they hid the money,but im a believer he paid them over the going rate to make him a more attractive proposition,as you say he could have pretended not to know the rates and that may have made them up the rates and feel more secure.i think there was something about JTR that didnt frighten them off,most likely a very ordinary looking mild mannered man.

but paying them over the odds would no doubt have attracted the women

[ianincleveland]

Would they only go with a client after receiving and pocketing the money, or would it be enough if he showed it to them and gave it to them afterwards?

This is important, because, as we all know, none of the victims had money on her person when found, although Jack very probably approached them pretending to be a client. So either he took the money back afterwards, or never gave it to them at all.

Somehow I find it hard to believe clients paid first - this could end with the lady running away with the money, and in every other trade it is first goods, then paying, isn't it?

I have not found information regarding this yet, and I admit, I do not know where to start my search.

dunno about then but even the desperate drug addicted prostitutes who walk the streets these days all ask for money up front

[Edward]

Fee for Service

Hello All -
I believe that the first rule in the "oldest profession" is to get the money up front. Some may argue that the victims' economically-depressed condition precluded demanding an up front fee. I do not agree with this argument. Get burnt once or twice, and you demand the fee up front.
Edward

[FrancoLoco]

Hello All -
I believe that the first rule in the "oldest profession" is to get the money up front. Some may argue that the victims' economically-depressed condition precluded demanding an up front fee. I do not agree with this argument. Get burnt once or twice, and you demand the fee up front.
Edward

There's no evidence pointing one way or the other, but any cop or ex-cop that I've spoken to about this all said the same thing: no matter how desperate the victim may be, there's no way the money doesn't get collected before going to the eventual scene of the crime. And the fact that none of the victims were found with any cash on their persons says to me that the Ripper took the time to get what he could after cutting the throat and before beginning the mutilations.

[Adam Went]

Maria:

The contents of Stride's system (stomach) were checked in the post-mortem, and it was said that there was no sign that she had consumed alcohol shortly prior to her death.

Now that's not to say that she had not consumed alcohol at all, but the medical evidence combined with the witness evidence would suggest that she had not been drinking anything alcoholic of note that evening after her visit to the pub with her landlady much earlier on.

Again I can only wish you the best with your research on Schwartz and would be very interested to hear news of any discoveries, especially since the beliefs in regards to Pipeman's candidacy as JTR, and the fact that even his presence in the area largely hinges on what Schwartz claimed he saw.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Adam,
I'm gonna ask and get informed, but I think that the contents of the stomach were tested for food, not alcohol.

Thank you so much for your well-wishes. I'll post any new results pertaining to Schwartz, but it'll take a few months, as this is a logistically complicated process.

[Adam Went]

Maria:

If you read through the Stride inquest statements from Dr. Phillips, you'll see that the stomach had been examined for alcohol (or "malt liquor" as it was called) as there was a theory going around that it was possible the killer had drugged his victims in some way before killing them. There was no trace - whatever the case, then, it's evident that either Stride had not been drinking in the few hours prior to her death, or if she had, it was such a miniscule amount as to be undetectable. So, for all intents and purposes, she was sober at the time.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Thanks so much, Adam. I'll look it up.

[Tom_Wescott]

Stride's stomach was tested for malt liquor...I repeat, malt liquor. She could have been drunk off her ass, just not with malt liquor.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Adam Went]

Tom:

Taking into account

a.) The medical testimony
b.) The witness testimony
c.) What we know of Stride's actions that night

Would you be willing to suggest that she was, in fact, "drunk off her ass"?

Cheers,
Adam.