The implications of the Double Event on Ripper victimology

[Phil H]

Chris

Thanks for your last post.

I entirely agree and if I were proposing a "theory" that Stride should be excluded, I would indeed be extrapolating. However, I have a completely open mind on the various possible scenarios put forward. I have certainly not rejected the "double event" as a possible interpretation of the evidence (how could I, for the reasons you cite).

Nevertheless, I have come increasingly to the conclusion (in large measure influenced by discussions I have followed on this site) that some of the "traditional" or conventional wisdoms about the case - number of victims in particular - are not wholly tenable and can limit our perception of other or emerging evidence.

I was long bothered by the old certainty of the "double event" without being sure why (by long I mean dating back to the 70s or 80s) but could not put my finger on why. Eventually, I realised that the "facts" surrounding the Eddowes killing could be at odds with the idea of a frantic "Jack" rushing up from Berner St. For instance, the man seen by Lawende and Hyams with a woman that might have been Eddowes, is not described as appearing other than relaxed. For the murderer to have been around the Mitre Sq area for a longer period before Eddowes was slain seems to me to make more sense.

That said, the "double event" remains on my palette of scenarios, though these days lower down the list.

I could discuss similar questioning of the timings of the Chapman murder, but that would not be appropriate in this thread.

So thanks for your "caution" which is well taken - I agree the dangers of extrapolation, but hope that an open mind and a juggling act of "possibilities" is not ruled out.

Phil

[Ben]

Hi all,

While caution is necessary, I feel a tentative can be made for a killer who sought to take advantage of widespread Jewish suspicion, which isn't to say that he harboured any strong anti-semitic feelings personally. There were of course many buildings with Jewish associations, but far fewer clubs, and the killer may well have taken advantage of these in particular as they were among the very few Jewish establishments "active" in the small hours.

There was a extensive thread on this topic several months ago.

Best regards,
Ben

[Phil H]

Ben

... far fewer clubs, and the killer may well have taken advantage of these in particular as they were among the very few Jewish establishments "active" in the small hours.

Indeed, he may well.

However, if he did not kill Stride, then I see no obvious (or any?) Jewish connection to the murders of Nichols, Chapman or Kelly. The club near Mitre Square apart - and if that is examined apart from other possible cases, I don't see any obvious connection - where is the Eddowes link? The association of apron and graffito in Goulston St remains controversial and unproven, so can only be cited as evidence at best cautiously (in my opinion).

Thus this anti-Jewish agenda seems to rely on making connections between and building assumptions on doubtful or non-existant evidence. The Imperial Club is irrelevant unless supported by the Berner St IWMC, but if Stride were killed by another hand that is not relevant!

There is no letter or other clear statement that tells us that the killer was pursuing such an agenda, and I regret that I have no alternative but to view this proposition as a chimera.

Phil

Phil

[Ben]

Hi Phil,

The lack of evidence suggesting that the killer was pursuing a Jewish-related "agenda" at the Nichols or Chapman murders in no way impacts upon the possibility of him having done so on the night of the supposed "double event". The extent of public suspicion towards the Jewish community was not so apparent at the time of the Nichols murder, and was only just coming to the fore around the time Chapman was killed, courtesy of "Leather Apron". Caution should indeed be observed when contemplating the Goulston Street message, but it's worth remembering Donald Swanson, Charles Warren and Henry Smith all endorsing the suggestion that the killer wrote the message with the intention of casting suspicion in a Jewish direction. Even if we disregard the message, the apron itself was cast into one of the most concentrated Jewish dwellings around.

I notice that we've been here before, incidentally!:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=139533#post139533

All the best,
Ben

[Luke111]

If you guys are interested, I have made a timeline of the double event,
I`d love to hear your thoughts

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5646

greetings

Lukas

[curious4]

Ben

... far fewer clubs, and the killer may well have taken advantage of these in particular as they were among the very few Jewish establishments "active" in the small hours.

Indeed, he may well.

However, if he did not kill Stride, then I see no obvious (or any?) Jewish connection to the murders of Nichols, Chapman or Kelly. The club near Mitre Square apart - and if that is examined apart from other possible cases, I don't see any obvious connection - where is the Eddowes link? The association of apron and graffito in Goulston St remains controversial and unproven, so can only be cited as evidence at best cautiously (in my opinion).

Thus this anti-Jewish agenda seems to rely on making connections between and building assumptions on doubtful or non-existant evidence. The Imperial Club is irrelevant unless supported by the Berner St IWMC, but if Stride were killed by another hand that is not relevant!

There is no letter or other clear statement that tells us that the killer was pursuing such an agenda, and I regret that I have no alternative but to view this proposition as a chimera.

Phil

Phil

Hello all,

There is a type of alchoholism - well-known in Sweden - where the sufferer is mainly sober but every once in a while goes off on a "bender", often disappearing for a few days, during which they are extremely drunk for a period of time. Afterwards they can carry on a sober life, until the next time they feel the urge to drink themselves into a stupor. I think Liz Stride could have fitted into this category, and this is why she left her partner for days at a time, not because he was excessively violent - even though I believe she did once report him to the police.

As for the so-called jewish connection I donīt think that this was Jackīs reason for killing and mutilating, but that he could have taken advantage of the widespread anti-semitism to throw out a red herring or two.

Best wishes
C4

[Canopy]

Hello Canopy,
Replied once but it disappeared - try again! Good points, but I think different meeting places at different times - setting traps, as it were, and checking them. Although I do think that if he came across an available victim he would have taken the opportunity. Against that, if it is true that he was trying to implicate the Jewish population, perhaps the place was well chosen.Hello Mord(ke),
Yes, great name for a Ripperologist lol. I think the risk-taking was a big part of Jackīs "thrill" - wanting to feel superior to those who wanted to catch him. I agree that he could well have been hiding in the shadows and even formed part of the crowd round the body for a time. As above, if he did want to implicate the Jewish population, however, he chose his places. Also I donīt think we can assume that the victims were all roaring drunk - not all the autopsies show alchohol in the stomach, or even the smell of alchohol.

Best regards,
C4

"In the mountains of madness there are small plateaux of sanity" - Terry Pratchett

It is possible - but in taking that opinion you'd have to accept that these women were chosen for a reason and that Jack held grudges...this too is possible. I am not about to dismiss your theory C4, as I'm of the opinion that such an action wouldn't be beneficial to seeking truth. However, I suspect Jack "took that on offer". Less planning needed to kill in public places...

C.

[curious4]

Holding grudges?

Hello C,

Not quite sure what you mean by Jack holding grudges. He had many poor and vunerable women to choose from and I think could well have "groomed" some of them. I feel that he selected his victims from a group of women who he considered worthless and with nothing to live for.

All the best,
C4