The Clapham photos

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

This is from the newspaper Lloyds Weekly, dated 21st October 1888, page 1,and describes a curious piece of news, alledgedly pertaining to photographs of one of the victims and a sister:-

'... We are informed that yesterday morning the Clapham police had handed to them five photos which had been found mysteriously at Clapham.They were wrapped up in a piece of white circular paper tied with string, and outside of which was written the following:-

"Whosoever finds these photos, please take care of them, as the cabinet is one of the murdered women in Whitechapel, the others her sister. The victim I kissed 20 times, and tried it on again, but I got no brass, so she told me to kiss her and to a dreadful end she came on the eve of her death."...'

Does anyone know anymore about this?

best wishes

Phil

[Jason]

jesus ...that sounds sinister !

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jason,

My apologies, apparently this was around on a thread from 2008, previously found by Chris Scott. My thanks to Chris for putting me on the right track.

The link is here:-

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-1432.html

best wishes

Phil

[DrHopper]

Hi Phil
Having read through the archived thread, there is no conclusion to the discussion, and many questions remain.
What were these alleged photographs? Do they still exist? what about the Clapham police records? Etc etc etc!

I think this is very intriguing, well done.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dr.H,

Many thanks
Well, there doesn't seem to be any trace of them. One thought that has occured to me, although I myself see it as a very slim chance, is this.. We have no original provenance for the photo's that mysteriously and suddenly turned up in 1988. Whether they have their originality in these photos here is a matter of pure speculation of course. However, as said, I doubt it.
All very intruiging I think.

best wishes

Phil

[tnb]

Hello Phil,

As you know I mentioned this to you in conversation a few days ago after your initial posting, but I thought it might be worth throwing it out there to see if anyone else can come up with any suggestions, as I am stumped!

What does anyone make of this peculiar line from the text claimed to have accompanied the photos:

The victim I kissed 20 times, and tried it on again, but I got no brass, so she told me to kiss her and to a dreadful end she came on the eve of her death

Now on first scanning this I came to the obvious interpretation, that the 'dreadful end' was the unfortunate woman's eventual death the next day. However when you re-read it, things are not that simple. 'to a dreadful end she came ON THE EVE OF HER DEATH' - what on earth could this refer to, and in the context of discussing her death the next day what could still be bad enough to be reffered to as 'dreadful'?

[Frank]

...and to a dreadful end she came on the evening of her death

Maybe the author was not really aware of the meaning of 'eve' (as the evening before an event) and meant simply 'evening'.

Or the 'dreadful end' was his decision (as he gave her a goodbye kiss) to kill her the next day.

[tnb]

...and to a dreadful end she came on the evening of her death

Maybe the author was not really aware of the meaning of 'eve' (as the evening before an event) and meant simply 'evening'.

Very good suggestion Frank. Although interestingly I don't think we could claim any of the victims were killed in the evening, rather the early hours of the morning surely?

Then again we do not know how much (correct) information this author had, given the above, so he may have simply been mistaked. Indeed, the woman he speaks of may not even have been a WM victim at all, by the same token. It would hardly be the first case of mistaken identity. Rather like the discussion myself and Debra Arif, amongst others, were having about the claims of a clergyman visiting Millbank Prison a while back.

I can't help thinking that if this report had been dated in December of 1888 it would be getting a great deal more attention

[Frank]

Although interestingly I don't think we could claim any of the victims were killed in the evening, rather the early hours of the morning surely?

A good and valid argument, tnb.

Surely a night rover could see the early hours of a new day still as evening (Oh, sometimes I miss my good old university times), but I don't think so. Maybe the 'dreadful end' was just the author's decision to kill her the following night, because he did not have his knife with him. That reminds me the quote of Ed Kemper:
"When someone put their hand on my car-door handle, they were giving me their life."
Putting the hand against the car-door handle was the beginning of a 'dreadful end'.

What I am really wondering about is, where from did the author have the photos of the victim and even of her sister? Is there anything known about East End street wanderers carrying pictures of themselves and their family? I would think that photos were quite expensive in that time, and only a few East End people would have had enough money left to afford them.