No foreign victims!

[spyglass]

Hi All,
Something crossed my mind last night whilst trying to get to sleep.
When looking at names on cencuses of the whitechapel area, It is noticeable that the majority of residence are of foreign nationality with foreign names, this includes many of the witnesses involved in the case.
Yet all the victims (esp the C5 ) all had British sounding names, certainly no Jewish,Russian or polish sounding victims.
Has anyone pointed this out before, and made anything of it?

[Adam Went]

That's actually an interesting point - not sure what, if any bearing it could have on the case, but well spotted just the same.
Having said that, we should remember that Liz Stride was of Swedish origin and was originally Liz Gustafsdotter. Also, depending on what version you believe, Mary Kelly was either Irish or Welsh, and may have spent some time in France as well and became Marie Jeanette. So it's not quite as clear cut as that, but it's probably got something to do with the statistical rate of middle-aged women soliciting and what their nationalities were. I don't know what the statistics are for this, or even if any definite ones exist, but I do know from reading studies and investigations that were taken in the Victorian era, that certain nationalities and groups of immigrants/foreigners were less keen to make their existence by prostitution than others.
Or, just an odd coincidence!?

Cheers,
Adam.

[MrTwibbs]

Yes I have noticed this also and put it down to my theory that the murderer was Jewish and targetted British prostitutes and to then intentionally steer blame onto the Jewish community and further this by writing the Goulston street grafitto.

Slightly OT but he (imo Levy) was probably shunned by the Jewish community himself and took revenge two fold, one by killing those that gave him an STD and the other to take revenge on his own community who had sent him away to jail and shunned him. I believe that the men that gave evidence against him lived in Goulston street.

[Chava]

As far as I can gather, the Jewish prostitutes--and there were lots--were working out of bordellos and weren't walking the streets to any large extent. Also there is clear evidence that Jews in general aren't as prone to alcoholism as other groups. 35% of Ashkenazi Jews have problems breaking down alcohol in the system. I know about this! I'm one of that 35%. Never could understand why people drink alcohol. Horrible stuff! Gives me a head-ache and the collywobbles. Doesn't matter what, beer, wine, spirits, it all tastes the same to me and it makes me sick. And I'm one of many in the community, most of whom hale from exactly where the London Jewish immigrants come from.

You wouldn't find too many Jewish whores hanging around the 10 Bells cadging tots of gin. And Our Boy does like a drunken whore...

[Ashkenaz]

Hi All,
Something crossed my mind last night whilst trying to get to sleep.
When looking at names on cencuses of the whitechapel area, It is noticeable that the majority of residence are of foreign nationality with foreign names, this includes many of the witnesses involved in the case.
Yet all the victims (esp the C5 ) all had British sounding names, certainly no Jewish,Russian or polish sounding victims.
Has anyone pointed this out before, and made anything of it?

Quite a few immigrants choose to adopt British names, or change their name to its British Equivalent. Foe example a man named Svartze might change it to Black. A man called Groone, may change it to Mr. Green etc.

Then there are other examples where someone just happens to like a certain name. For example, Michael Winner's ancestors were likely to have foreign names, as were those of Bob Hoskins and Michael Cain.

Unfortunately, we can't read too much into names. People with British names, might be among the victims, but genetically, they may be foreigners, if that makes sense !

[Chava]

Michael Caine's real name was Maurice Micklewhite. Apparently he came from a long line of Cockney costers and whatever. I'd agree about Bob Hoskins. He would fit right into our synagogue! However the immigrants who changed their names were probably more upwardly mobile than the immigrants who ended up working in a knocking shop...

[Robert]

"Michael Caine's real name was Maurice Micklewhite."

Now there's not many people know that.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Robert, Adam, spyglass, chava, all,

Here is something that I noticed...


1) Polly Nicholls (b.1845) :- Lived a greater part of her life in Lambeth and Walworth. Edmonton, Holborn and Wandsworth (ca. 1866- ca. July 1888, various adresses) before coming to Thrawl Street 2.8.1888, then Flower and Dean St from 24.8 1888-30.8.1888. Note how much of her life was spent outside Whitechapel.. only a very small part of it IN Whitechapel and Spitalfields. (1 month)

2) Annie Chapman (b. 1841):- Born in Paddington, Moved to Windsor 1856. Lived in West London until 1881. Moved back to Windsor. Moved back to London, 1882, living in Dorset St 1886 and onwards, noted again in 1888 mainly at Crossingham's Lodging House.(2 years in Whitechapel)

3) Elizabeth Stride ( b. 1843) b. Torslanda, Nr Gothenburg, Sweden. 1869-1877 Poplar, and from then on lived more or less in Lodging Houses in Whitechapel. (ca. 11 years in Whitechapel or surrounding area)

4) Kate Eddowes (b.1842):- b. Wolverhaptom. moved to Bermonsey ca. 1844. Ca. 1855 back to Wolverhampton, (uncertain), 1861, 62 or 63 left home with pensioner Conway, lived in and around the Midlands, Birmingham. 1881 probably living with John Kelly, moving around Bermonsey and Southwark. Sept 1888 in Kent, returned to Shoe Lane, then Mile End. (1 month or so in Whitechapel area)

5) Mary Jane Kelly(b.ca.1863) supposedly Irish, brought up in Wales, came to London ca.1884, via France, then to Ratcliffe Highway, nr. Stepney gasworks, 1886 Breezer's Hill. Possibly Bethnall Green with Fleming, and 1887, Thrawl St Spitalfields, Flower and Dean St, Whitechapel. From then on Spitalfields, Paternoster Row and Brick Lane and Whitechapel.(2 years in Spitalfields and Whitechapel)

Note the singular lack of victims born and bred in Whitechapel, the short amounts of time they actually DID live there, and yet these people were relatively well known. The strange thing is Stride, who lived in the area longest, yet there was a problem identifying her correctly.

best wishes

Phil

[Adam Went]

Hey Phil,

Very interesting stuff, thanks for putting that together.
It probably says a lot about Whitechapel and its surrounding areas though, in the Victorian era they really were a magnet for those who had either been born into a lowly life or who had spiralled downhill into one. I've lost count of how many accounts i've read of people who had been doing reasonably well for themselves outside of London, had moved to London/the East End for one reason or another, but primarily to improve their opportunities - and then they wished they had never done it.

By then of course all these women except for MJK were getting older, getting sicker, getting more desperate and they really were sitting ducks for somebody like JTR. Very sad when you consider the factors which had led to these women arriving at where they were in 1888.

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Good Michael]

This has been noted often in the past. It is part of the reason I believe that the graffiti was connected to JTR; if not in deed, then in meaning. No Jewish prostitutes were killed at a time when London was a hub of prostitute trafficking for new Polish and Russian immigrant Jews. Yet, with only a few victims being killed, and they being predominately older and alone, it may all amount to nothing.

Mike

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

I personally think, that these things are only coincidences and that JtR was just a common man outside, picking his victims by random!

All the best
Jukka

[The Good Michael]

Jukka,

Leave it to a Finn to bring us all down!

Mike

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Good Michael!

Thanks, but as long as JtR remains unknown, all kinds of theories will and must go on...

All the best
Jukka

[Iain Wilson]

Rather than targeting a certain type of women because of race is it not more probable that he picked on these women because they were easily available and vulnerable?

[YankeeSergeant]

Opportunity

Rather than targeting a certain type of women because of race is it not more probable that he picked on these women because they were easily available and vulnerable?

Iain, a very cogent point! these women were of a class but it easily could have been any one of thousands of unfortunates. i don't think you can read a lot of planning into the victim list. they were high riskwomen who were (for them) in the wrong place,atthe wrong time and sidled up to the wrong customer.