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  • Originally posted by PaulB View Post

    Rubenhold's case is more complex than you seem to think (have you actually read her book?), and I'm afraid that your final paragraph not only suggests that your knowledge of Victorian society is nil, it's exactly the sort of misogynist viewpoint that she justifiably criticises.
    But what I have posted is factually correct, Nichols had been drinking,Eddowes was found drunk, Kelly had been drinking, Tabram had been out drinking all had money for drink. money that could have been put to better use.

    They say the truth hurts, and the truth is what Rubenhold cannot accept because it smashes a great big hole in what she has written in her book, that these victims were poor penniless street women when they were not as unfortunate as she describes them.

    What does the dictionary term unfortunate mean "having or marked by bad fortune; unlucky" does that apply to these women? Yes they had fallen on hard times but was that through their own making?





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    • Ellen Fisher's entry into the workhouse was caused by her being left destitute.The description pauper was the name given while in the workhouse.Both words you will find are euphemism's of unfortunate.A search of the internet will reveal this, but nowhere on the internet can I find unfortunate to be an euphemism of prostitute.So Herlock you show me where you obtained your definition,and I will publish mine.
      I thank Debra for her information,though I already knew it,but does Debra, in anyway,when describing Ellen Fisher,prove prostitution?Of Ellen,or her kind.
      Cox,a witness in the Kelly murder,descrbes herself as an 'Unfortunate',so the word and it's meaning was known to the unfortunate class in 1888.Was she a prostitute?Is there evidence she was?
      Let's not forget that my arguement is that not all unfortunates were prostitutes,against Herlock's claim they were,and it is pleasing to know there are those that agree with me.
      Henry McMahon.Yes I can prove his existence,and the fact he was referred to as an 'Unfortunat'.I will when Herlock publishes his claims. Click image for larger version

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      • Debra,
        You claim I didn't give Ellen the credit she was due.Was it ever an issue I need remark on.Does it have a bearing on this thread?As a child I placed flowers on her grave on some sunday mornings.I showed my respect to her.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by harry View Post
          Ellen Fisher's entry into the workhouse was caused by her being left destitute.The description pauper was the name given while in the workhouse.Both words you will find are euphemism's of unfortunate.A search of the internet will reveal this, but nowhere on the internet can I find unfortunate to be an euphemism of prostitute.So Herlock you show me where you obtained your definition,and I will publish mine.
          I thank Debra for her information,though I already knew it,but does Debra, in anyway,when describing Ellen Fisher,prove prostitution?Of Ellen,or her kind.
          Cox,a witness in the Kelly murder,descrbes herself as an 'Unfortunate',so the word and it's meaning was known to the unfortunate class in 1888.Was she a prostitute?Is there evidence she was?
          Let's not forget that my arguement is that not all unfortunates were prostitutes,against Herlock's claim they were,and it is pleasing to know there are those that agree with me.
          Henry McMahon.Yes I can prove his existence,and the fact he was referred to as an 'Unfortunat'.I will when Herlock publishes his claims. Click image for larger version

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          Harry, as you know because you can't produce one, Ellen Fisher was never identified as an 'unfortunate' in any of the records relating to her. She found herself destitute and in the workhouse for whatever reasons. It is you who have claimed she was an unfortunate. She was certainly unfortunate to have ended up in the workhouse in teh first place.
          You have to ask yourself why Mary Ann Cox, who described herself as "an unfortunate" was leaving the shelter of her home on a cold, wet, November night/morning on more than one occasion. Where was she going and why?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by harry View Post
            Debra,
            You claim I didn't give Ellen the credit she was due.Was it ever an issue I need remark on.Does it have a bearing on this thread?As a child I placed flowers on her grave on some sunday mornings.I showed my respect to her.
            I'm afraid I resorted to sarcasm, Harry. As a woman, I found it a little annoying when you suggested Ellen's life picked up when she married a 'good man' but I felt the need to point out, as any woman would including Hallie Rubenhold I suspect, that Ellen worked hard most of her married life in a vinegar bottling plant (which can't have been the most pleasant of jobs) earning money in her own right and contributing to the family income that kept them out of poverty.

            Comment


            • It depends on what one means by 'Unfortunate'.I doubt anyone will deny that Polly Nichols was classed as an'Unfortunate'.She spent time in more than one workhouse.No doubt she might have been admitted and resided under the the term 'Pauper',but that hasn't stopped posters calling her an'Unfortunate'.
              Are they also wrong Debra?
              I find it insulting that all those classed as 'Unfortunate' are classed as prostitutes.Do you believe they were Debra?

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              • Harry,
                If there is somewhere on the internet where pauper and unfortunate are used interchangeably to mean a poor person, point us to it. Telling us that it exists and expecting people to go searching for it, is unacceptable.

                You write:
                “but nowhere on the internet can I find unfortunate to be an euphemism of prostitute.”

                I typed “unfortunate” into Google and the very first definition under noun, apparently taken from the OED, was:
                “noun
                1. a person who suffers bad fortune.
                "those unfortunates whose lives are marred by poverty"

                2. ARCHAIC
                a person who is considered immoral or lacking in religious faith or instruction, especially a prostitute.”

                Turning to the Oxford English Dictionary itself, we find under “Unfortunate”:

                “2. A fallen woman; a prostitute.
                1803 G. COLMAN John Bull II. ii. 26 Frank. Where is the reparation to the unfortunate he has deserted? Shuffleton... A great many unfortunates sport a stilish carriage.
                1844 Hood's Mag. May 414 One more Unfortunate…Gone to her death!
                1866 J. E. T. ROGERS Hist. Agric. & Prices 1. v. 118 Unfortunates committed to prison were in evil case.”

                Usage in fact goes back to the late 1700s
                “1792 Observer 24 June 3/1 The great number of unfortunate young women, who nightly parade the streets of this immense metropolis, for the horrid purpose of..prostitution of their persons.

                1796 F. GROSE Classical Diet. Vulgar Tongue (ed. 3) unfortunate women, prostitutes.”

                So, as you can see, “unfortunate” was beyond any question or doubt a euphemism for prostitute.

                Everyone knows and they have told you that “unfortunate” had several meanings as both an adjective and a noun. Your image was and is unnecessary.

                Mary Ann Cox described herself as “an unfortunate” because she was a prostitute. That is what the word meant, and her actions that night support that is what she meant. Nobody had or has to prove that was what she was, the word commonly meant prostitute.

                Herlock did not argue that all unfortunate people were prostitutes, he said that in the late Victorian period “an unfortunate” meant prostitute. You have argued that when “an unfortunate” was used, it did not always mean prostitute, you have claimed that there were thousands of people described as unfortunates who were not prostitutes, and you have said that there are records where children and men are described as unfortunates. You have not provided any examples. Debs has suggested that you mistakenly thought unfortunate and pauper meant the same thing, you have claimed that pauper and unfortunate were used interchangeably, but again you haven’t produced a single example.

                I don’t think anyone is interested in playing “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours” games. We are grown-ups and this isn’t a schoolyard, and you are the prosecutor here, so it really is up to you to demonstrate and support your case.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by harry View Post
                  It depends on what one means by 'Unfortunate'.I doubt anyone will deny that Polly Nichols was classed as an'Unfortunate'.She spent time in more than one workhouse.No doubt she might have been admitted and resided under the the term 'Pauper',but that hasn't stopped posters calling her an'Unfortunate'.
                  Are they also wrong Debra?
                  I find it insulting that all those classed as 'Unfortunate' are classed as prostitutes.Do you believe they were Debra?
                  Harry, given that my argument is that I disagree with you that being classified as a pauper was synonymous with being 'an unfortunate,' I can't answer your question, it doesn't make any sense to me.

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                  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post


                    Record shows that these women did obtain money by whatever means, and then spent it on drink instead of taking care of themsleves or taking permanant lodgings so in effect they were responsible for their own demise not society and society should not be blamed.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                    It is very reassuring to know you are retired.

                    Please use spellcheck or buy a dictionary.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by harry View Post
                      It depends on what one means by 'Unfortunate'.I doubt anyone will deny that Polly Nichols was classed as an'Unfortunate'.She spent time in more than one workhouse.No doubt she might have been admitted and resided under the the term 'Pauper',but that hasn't stopped posters calling her an'Unfortunate'.
                      Are they also wrong Debra?
                      I find it insulting that all those classed as 'Unfortunate' are classed as prostitutes.Do you believe they were Debra?
                      All those classed as "unfortunate" are not called prostitutes, Harry. Those who are listed as "an unfortunate" or who, like Mary Ann Cox when asked her occupation said she was "an unfortunate", were prostitutes. As a noun, it's what the word meant. When the newspaper gave an account of the prosecution of publican Alexander Burn for allowing prostitutes to use his pub (see post 44) it did so under the headline “Harbouring Unfortunates”. Readers knew what "Unfortunates" meant, they didn't think the publican had been fined for letting his pub be used by paupers or workhouse inmates.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                        It is very reassuring to know you are retired.
                        Yes I am glad I dont have to now deal and come in contact with muppets like you

                        Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit !!!!!!!!!!!!

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                        Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 12-17-2021, 09:55 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by harry View Post
                          Ellen Fisher's entry into the workhouse was caused by her being left destitute.The description pauper was the name given while in the workhouse.Both words you will find are euphemism's of unfortunate.A search of the internet will reveal this, but nowhere on the internet can I find unfortunate to be an euphemism of prostitute.So Herlock you show me where you obtained your definition,and I will publish mine.
                          I thank Debra for her information,though I already knew it,but does Debra, in anyway,when describing Ellen Fisher,prove prostitution?Of Ellen,or her kind.
                          Cox,a witness in the Kelly murder,descrbes herself as an 'Unfortunate',so the word and it's meaning was known to the unfortunate class in 1888.Was she a prostitute?Is there evidence she was?
                          Let's not forget that my arguement is that not all unfortunates were prostitutes,against Herlock's claim they were,and it is pleasing to know there are those that agree with me.
                          Henry McMahon.Yes I can prove his existence,and the fact he was referred to as an 'Unfortunat'.I will when Herlock publishes his claims. Click image for larger version  Name:	synonyms.png Views:	0 Size:	58.4 KB ID:	776186

                          I’ll tell you what my main issue is Harry. It’s that we are way past the point where we can simply put your suggestions down to being mistaken. Sadly for me it’s now obvious that this is entirely deliberate. You know that you are wrong (you must do) and yet you keep obfuscating in the hope that we will just move on.

                          Destitute and Pauper are not euphemisms for Unfortunate Harry. A search of the internet does not prove this and you know it. You are reduced to making things up.

                          The dictionary definition that you posted shows that you continue to ‘not understand’ the point. God knows how many times I’ve stressed this Harry (and not just me) but we are talking about ‘Unfortunate’ used as a NOUN. Your quote doesn’t show the word as a noun and so is entirely useless. Paul however has shown definitions of its uses as a noun so I don’t need to do it. This proves without doubt what everyone but you knows Harry. That ‘an Unfortunate’ in the Victorian period mean ‘prostitute.’

                          This should be game over Harry. You simply cannot maintain integrity by continuing with your categorically disproven claims.

                          You say that you can produce evidence that Henry McMahon was labelled as ‘an Unfortunate.’ And just for clarity we mean as a noun followed by a full stop and not ‘an unfortunate man,’ or something like it.

                          Frankly Harry, due to my experience of your tactics I struggle to believe you. During this entire discussion you haven’t produced a single piece of valid evidence to back up any of your claims unlike Paul, Debra and myself who certainly have. Not one. And even if someone had called McMahon an unfortunate it would be a one off.

                          What you should be asking yourself Harry is why no one agrees with you? What motive do we have for saying that ‘an Unfortunate’ meant a prostitute? It’s simply a fact that everyone but you accepts. As we know from previous experience that you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge or admit when you’ve been proved wrong it’s clear to all that this is another example of this. You clearly have an aversion to admitting to an error.
                          Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 12-17-2021, 10:37 AM.
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                            But what I have posted is factually correct, Nichols had been drinking,Eddowes was found drunk, Kelly had been drinking, Tabram had been out drinking all had money for drink. money that could have been put to better use.

                            They say the truth hurts, and the truth is what Rubenhold cannot accept because it smashes a great big hole in what she has written in her book, that these victims were poor penniless street women when they were not as unfortunate as she describes them.

                            What does the dictionary term unfortunate mean "having or marked by bad fortune; unlucky" does that apply to these women? Yes they had fallen on hard times but was that through their own making?




                            Trevor,
                            Yes, they were drinking. Beyond that, I don't agree with what you said and I don't really want to bang my head against another brick wall by trying to explain to you why.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                              Yes I am glad I dont have to now deal and come in contact with muppets like you

                              Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit !!!!!!!!!!!!

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                              Why is he a muppet, Trevor? I imagine a lot of people thought the same, myself included, as they reached for a bucket when they read what you said.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                                Yes I am glad I dont have to now deal and come in contact with muppets like you

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                I assume you don't have any mirrors in your house.

                                Comment

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