Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[Herlock Sholmes]

The police belived it because they clearly had evidence to support that belief which the document I posted clearly shows, as does the death cert of Kelly and the wealth of other corroborative evidence to show these women were on the game.

Lets be sensible about this point I am sure the police did not just go out and label every unfortuate woman as a prostitute, why would they do that what would it achieve, there was a caution process they applied before any prostitute was even taken to court. I am aware that this whole issue was created by Rubehold who is using this to add weight to her making a case for these women to be so hard done by that they had no where to go and no one to care for them.

Truth be told thats a load of old tosh. Record shows that these women did obtain money by whatever means, and then spent it on drink instead of taking care of themsleves or taking permanant lodgings so in effect they were responsible for their own demise not society and society should not be blamed.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Others have commented on this but Trevor….really?

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt that you might have meant ‘their circumstances’ when you wrote of ‘their own demise,’ because you surely can’t have meant that they were responsible for their own deaths but even then…

How critical can we be of decisions made by women living in circumstances that we can only try to imagine. It was tough enough for men at that strata of society but it was far harder for women because the work opportunities just weren’t there to anything like the same extent. It’s hardly a wonder that they turned to drink to blot out, even for a few hours, their lives and the prospect of a night in a filthy, stinking, infested doss house after selling themselves to some drunken, smelly bloke who might even have given them a slap or two for good measure.. Yes they obtained money when and how they could but they couldn’t rely on it from day to day. Annie Chapman sold certain small items when she could but she’d have needed money to buy them in the first place. Where did that come from?

I don’t think that these women should take any measure of blame for their circumstances Trevor and I’m guessing that you’re the only person that would even suggest it. Yes they ‘might’ have made poor decisions but does someone deserve that kind of life as a punishment? Everyone makes poor decisions at some point in their lives but it doesn’t always condemn them to a hellish life in a slum. Society created poverty. Society created a system where women were considered as being subservient to men. These women were just as much victims of society as they were of the ripper and your comment just feeds into the false impression that Rubenhold’s supporters already have of Ripperologists. And let’s face it…not for the first time.

[Mark J D]

... Record shows that these women did obtain money by whatever means, and then spent it on drink instead of taking care of themsleves or taking permanant lodgings so in effect they were responsible for their own demise not society and society should not be blamed.

<*boggle*...>

I see we are, 'in effect', back where we were in 1977 -- with the police referring to the murdered Jayne MacDonald as the first "innocent" victim.

Or, to put it another way, 'The police are the men that will not be shamed for nothing.'

M.

[Aethelwulf]

Yes I am glad I dont have to now deal and come in contact with muppets like you

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I assume you don't have any mirrors in your house.

[PaulB]

Yes I am glad I dont have to now deal and come in contact with muppets like you

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit !!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why is he a muppet, Trevor? I imagine a lot of people thought the same, myself included, as they reached for a bucket when they read what you said.

[PaulB]

But what I have posted is factually correct, Nichols had been drinking,Eddowes was found drunk, Kelly had been drinking, Tabram had been out drinking all had money for drink. money that could have been put to better use.

They say the truth hurts, and the truth is what Rubenhold cannot accept because it smashes a great big hole in what she has written in her book, that these victims were poor penniless street women when they were not as unfortunate as she describes them.

What does the dictionary term unfortunate mean "having or marked by bad fortune; unlucky" does that apply to these women? Yes they had fallen on hard times but was that through their own making?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor,
Yes, they were drinking. Beyond that, I don't agree with what you said and I don't really want to bang my head against another brick wall by trying to explain to you why.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ellen Fisher's entry into the workhouse was caused by her being left destitute.The description pauper was the name given while in the workhouse.Both words you will find are euphemism's of unfortunate.A search of the internet will reveal this, but nowhere on the internet can I find unfortunate to be an euphemism of prostitute.So Herlock you show me where you obtained your definition,and I will publish mine.
I thank Debra for her information,though I already knew it,but does Debra, in anyway,when describing Ellen Fisher,prove prostitution?Of Ellen,or her kind.
Cox,a witness in the Kelly murder,descrbes herself as an 'Unfortunate',so the word and it's meaning was known to the unfortunate class in 1888.Was she a prostitute?Is there evidence she was?
Let's not forget that my arguement is that not all unfortunates were prostitutes,against Herlock's claim they were,and it is pleasing to know there are those that agree with me.
Henry McMahon.Yes I can prove his existence,and the fact he was referred to as an 'Unfortunat'.I will when Herlock publishes his claims.

I’ll tell you what my main issue is Harry. It’s that we are way past the point where we can simply put your suggestions down to being mistaken. Sadly for me it’s now obvious that this is entirely deliberate. You know that you are wrong (you must do) and yet you keep obfuscating in the hope that we will just move on.

Destitute and Pauper are not euphemisms for Unfortunate Harry. A search of the internet does not prove this and you know it. You are reduced to making things up.

The dictionary definition that you posted shows that you continue to ‘not understand’ the point. God knows how many times I’ve stressed this Harry (and not just me) but we are talking about ‘Unfortunate’ used as a NOUN. Your quote doesn’t show the word as a noun and so is entirely useless. Paul however has shown definitions of its uses as a noun so I don’t need to do it. This proves without doubt what everyone but you knows Harry. That ‘an Unfortunate’ in the Victorian period mean ‘prostitute.’

This should be game over Harry. You simply cannot maintain integrity by continuing with your categorically disproven claims.

You say that you can produce evidence that Henry McMahon was labelled as ‘an Unfortunate.’ And just for clarity we mean as a noun followed by a full stop and not ‘an unfortunate man,’ or something like it.

Frankly Harry, due to my experience of your tactics I struggle to believe you. During this entire discussion you haven’t produced a single piece of valid evidence to back up any of your claims unlike Paul, Debra and myself who certainly have. Not one. And even if someone had called McMahon an unfortunate it would be a one off.

What you should be asking yourself Harry is why no one agrees with you? What motive do we have for saying that ‘an Unfortunate’ meant a prostitute? It’s simply a fact that everyone but you accepts. As we know from previous experience that you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge or admit when you’ve been proved wrong it’s clear to all that this is another example of this. You clearly have an aversion to admitting to an error.

[Trevor Marriott]

It is very reassuring to know you are retired.

Yes I am glad I dont have to now deal and come in contact with muppets like you

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit !!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PaulB]

It depends on what one means by 'Unfortunate'.I doubt anyone will deny that Polly Nichols was classed as an'Unfortunate'.She spent time in more than one workhouse.No doubt she might have been admitted and resided under the the term 'Pauper',but that hasn't stopped posters calling her an'Unfortunate'.
Are they also wrong Debra?
I find it insulting that all those classed as 'Unfortunate' are classed as prostitutes.Do you believe they were Debra?

All those classed as "unfortunate" are not called prostitutes, Harry. Those who are listed as "an unfortunate" or who, like Mary Ann Cox when asked her occupation said she was "an unfortunate", were prostitutes. As a noun, it's what the word meant. When the newspaper gave an account of the prosecution of publican Alexander Burn for allowing prostitutes to use his pub (see post 44) it did so under the headline “Harbouring Unfortunates”. Readers knew what "Unfortunates" meant, they didn't think the publican had been fined for letting his pub be used by paupers or workhouse inmates.

[Aethelwulf]

Record shows that these women did obtain money by whatever means, and then spent it on drink instead of taking care of themsleves or taking permanant lodgings so in effect they were responsible for their own demise not society and society should not be blamed.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

It is very reassuring to know you are retired.

Please use spellcheck or buy a dictionary.

[Debra A]

It depends on what one means by 'Unfortunate'.I doubt anyone will deny that Polly Nichols was classed as an'Unfortunate'.She spent time in more than one workhouse.No doubt she might have been admitted and resided under the the term 'Pauper',but that hasn't stopped posters calling her an'Unfortunate'.
Are they also wrong Debra?
I find it insulting that all those classed as 'Unfortunate' are classed as prostitutes.Do you believe they were Debra?

Harry, given that my argument is that I disagree with you that being classified as a pauper was synonymous with being 'an unfortunate,' I can't answer your question, it doesn't make any sense to me.

[PaulB]

Harry,
If there is somewhere on the internet where pauper and unfortunate are used interchangeably to mean a poor person, point us to it. Telling us that it exists and expecting people to go searching for it, is unacceptable.

You write:
“but nowhere on the internet can I find unfortunate to be an euphemism of prostitute.”

I typed “unfortunate” into Google and the very first definition under noun, apparently taken from the OED, was:
“noun
1. a person who suffers bad fortune.
"those unfortunates whose lives are marred by poverty"

2. ARCHAIC
a person who is considered immoral or lacking in religious faith or instruction, especially a prostitute.”

Turning to the Oxford English Dictionary itself, we find under “Unfortunate”:

“2. A fallen woman; a prostitute.
1803 G. COLMAN John Bull II. ii. 26 Frank. Where is the reparation to the unfortunate he has deserted? Shuffleton... A great many unfortunates sport a stilish carriage.
1844 Hood's Mag. May 414 One more Unfortunate…Gone to her death!
1866 J. E. T. ROGERS Hist. Agric. & Prices 1. v. 118 Unfortunates committed to prison were in evil case.”

Usage in fact goes back to the late 1700s
“1792 Observer 24 June 3/1 The great number of unfortunate young women, who nightly parade the streets of this immense metropolis, for the horrid purpose of..prostitution of their persons.

1796 F. GROSE Classical Diet. Vulgar Tongue (ed. 3) unfortunate women, prostitutes.”

So, as you can see, “unfortunate” was beyond any question or doubt a euphemism for prostitute.

Everyone knows and they have told you that “unfortunate” had several meanings as both an adjective and a noun. Your image was and is unnecessary.

Mary Ann Cox described herself as “an unfortunate” because she was a prostitute. That is what the word meant, and her actions that night support that is what she meant. Nobody had or has to prove that was what she was, the word commonly meant prostitute.

Herlock did not argue that all unfortunate people were prostitutes, he said that in the late Victorian period “an unfortunate” meant prostitute. You have argued that when “an unfortunate” was used, it did not always mean prostitute, you have claimed that there were thousands of people described as unfortunates who were not prostitutes, and you have said that there are records where children and men are described as unfortunates. You have not provided any examples. Debs has suggested that you mistakenly thought unfortunate and pauper meant the same thing, you have claimed that pauper and unfortunate were used interchangeably, but again you haven’t produced a single example.

I don’t think anyone is interested in playing “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours” games. We are grown-ups and this isn’t a schoolyard, and you are the prosecutor here, so it really is up to you to demonstrate and support your case.

[harry]

It depends on what one means by 'Unfortunate'.I doubt anyone will deny that Polly Nichols was classed as an'Unfortunate'.She spent time in more than one workhouse.No doubt she might have been admitted and resided under the the term 'Pauper',but that hasn't stopped posters calling her an'Unfortunate'.
Are they also wrong Debra?
I find it insulting that all those classed as 'Unfortunate' are classed as prostitutes.Do you believe they were Debra?

[Debra A]

Debra,
You claim I didn't give Ellen the credit she was due.Was it ever an issue I need remark on.Does it have a bearing on this thread?As a child I placed flowers on her grave on some sunday mornings.I showed my respect to her.

I'm afraid I resorted to sarcasm, Harry. As a woman, I found it a little annoying when you suggested Ellen's life picked up when she married a 'good man' but I felt the need to point out, as any woman would including Hallie Rubenhold I suspect, that Ellen worked hard most of her married life in a vinegar bottling plant (which can't have been the most pleasant of jobs) earning money in her own right and contributing to the family income that kept them out of poverty.

[Debra A]

Ellen Fisher's entry into the workhouse was caused by her being left destitute.The description pauper was the name given while in the workhouse.Both words you will find are euphemism's of unfortunate.A search of the internet will reveal this, but nowhere on the internet can I find unfortunate to be an euphemism of prostitute.So Herlock you show me where you obtained your definition,and I will publish mine.
I thank Debra for her information,though I already knew it,but does Debra, in anyway,when describing Ellen Fisher,prove prostitution?Of Ellen,or her kind.
Cox,a witness in the Kelly murder,descrbes herself as an 'Unfortunate',so the word and it's meaning was known to the unfortunate class in 1888.Was she a prostitute?Is there evidence she was?
Let's not forget that my arguement is that not all unfortunates were prostitutes,against Herlock's claim they were,and it is pleasing to know there are those that agree with me.
Henry McMahon.Yes I can prove his existence,and the fact he was referred to as an 'Unfortunat'.I will when Herlock publishes his claims.

Harry, as you know because you can't produce one, Ellen Fisher was never identified as an 'unfortunate' in any of the records relating to her. She found herself destitute and in the workhouse for whatever reasons. It is you who have claimed she was an unfortunate. She was certainly unfortunate to have ended up in the workhouse in teh first place.
You have to ask yourself why Mary Ann Cox, who described herself as "an unfortunate" was leaving the shelter of her home on a cold, wet, November night/morning on more than one occasion. Where was she going and why?

[harry]

Debra,
You claim I didn't give Ellen the credit she was due.Was it ever an issue I need remark on.Does it have a bearing on this thread?As a child I placed flowers on her grave on some sunday mornings.I showed my respect to her.