Probability of Double Event

[Tom_Wescott]

According to the Diemster, Johnston put her on her back and opened her hands. Read my Jack & the Grapestalk article in Ripper Notes #25 for the whole story.

And why are you calling yourself a 'newbie', Lynn?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

People, the cachous didn't come out because initially she was strangled, plus, death convulsions coming along with clenching hands and such? Do I need to get more specific? Noone has any idea whatsoever of medicinal facts here?
Lynn, cachous are the opposite of an un-boiled egg, as in, they are small and they don't break. Hence your unboiled egg analogy is completely unrelated. (By the by, if Stride held a hard boiled egg with a timer on it, we might have been able to establish time of death, so maybe a hard boiled egg analogy should be considered – by a hard boiled detective?)
Lynn, I'm sure that, along the philosophers, also the mathematicians, the medical doctors, the police detectives, and even the FBI profilers also claim that philosophy/math/medicine/detecting/profiling/insert your choice is simplicity itself. Now who's right?

[lynn cates]

alli

Hello Tom. I refer to the body as it was found. She was on her side, cachous in hand.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

etwas mehr

Hello Maria. Put simply, Liz did not spill the cachous.

Yes, there was one death grip. (Try sneaking up on someone from behind and seize him by the throat--maybe your boss. Both fists will clench and move toward the affected area.) I am actually counting on exactly this. Else, it could not have happened.

And if not for the cachous, I would still buy the traditional story and I would be starting threads titled, "The intensity of Jack's blood lust when he doubled back."

(Hello All. On a scale of 1 to 10, given that Jack was excited by all the ladies around him soliciting, and given his frustration at Dutfield's, how strong was his blood lust as he doubled back to Mitre Square?)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Wescott wrote:
I've pointed out to Lynn in the past that Edward Spooner and Edward Johnston handled Stride's body prior to Dr. Blackwell's arrival. It seems Johnston moved her around significantly. Therefore, we in no way can expect Stride to have been in exactly the same position she was in when Diemshitz found her, although I imagine it was quite similar, and I doubt her feet changed in position much.
Tom, I know about all this, and I've read Ripper Notes #25. What I don't have time to look up is, are we absolutely clear that Stride had no defense injuries on her hand with the “grapes“? Mary Kelly spotted defense injuries (in a whole another kind of attack, it's true). From direct experience (from ice skating and repeatedly cutting my hand cleaning my blades, don't ask) I happen to know that drops of blood dripping off one's fingers are perfectly round and biggish, exactly as in the drops of blood mistaken for grapes on Stride's hand. Blood smeared from “contamination“ through Edward Spooner or from the first doctor on the spot might have been more like a smear than like round drops. Of course, it all depends on how much blood was coming out of her throat, and how much coagulated it was. Still, the more wet the blood, the more it would fall away like drops; the more dry, the more sticky. This is all elementary knowledge, as everybody who has ever cut himslef seriously would have experienced.

[Tom_Wescott]

What I don't have time to look up is, are we absolutely clear that Stride had no defense injuries on her hand with the “grapes“?

Yes, we can be sure of this without being accused of oversimplification. There were no injuries at all on Stride's hands, so could not have been defense wounds. The blood was most likely transferred from her neck to her wrist/hand by Edward Johnston.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Try sneaking up on someone from behind and seize him by the throat--maybe your boss. Both fists will clench and move toward the affected area.
You're too late, this has actually already happened, but I decided to spare his life when he started crying like a baby. But currently all is lovey-dovey on the (Chicago) boss front. (My, doesn't that sound like an Al Capone quote – totally?) More interestingly, my Bayreuth boss woke me up from a coma today, when his secretary called to tell me that there's a (recommendation) Letter from my Boss awaiting in my email. I was trying to supress laughing hysterically, as there was no way I could have explained the reference to her.

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
Yes, we can be sure of this without being accused of oversimplification. There were no injuries at all on Stride's hands, so could not have been defense wounds. The blood was most likely transferred from her neck to her wrist/hand by Edward Johnston.
Hey, I'm not the one accusing you of ovesimplification.
No defense injuries, OK. (Which would not have fitted with the cachous having stayed in her hand anyway. This was a blitz attack in my opinion, if you'd excuse my German.)
But the blood must have still been pretty “wet“ to have formed round circles, which actually fits with a transfer by Edward Johnson, who was the first medical person to touch her, before her blood started to dry/coagulate.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yep, and they were in oblong clots in precisely the places you'd expect to find them after someone with bloody finger tips felt her wrist for a pulse. I've received general agreement on this theory, though a few negative nillies say Bah! I no longer recall what Lynn's stance is on this topic, so perhaps you should bring it up over dinner before Lynn turns the Barry White on.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

You seem to envision Liz being spun like a finalist in a Jitterbug contest. But remember we are only talking 180 degrees here, a simple half turn. If it was done gently by her killer while supporting her body, I don't think we can say conclusively that the cachous would have come flying out.

c.d.

[mariab]

Lynn, can I send you my “socialist“ text PLEASE, it's totally-totally-totally brilliant and it spots an (added on) Feigenbaumish rhetoric. It's just 3 pages long, much shorter than Der Arbeter Fraint.
(I would send it to Tom, but I don't think that he reads nazi. Oh my God, I said nazi!)

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria, that's the nicest thing anyone has said about me lately. I have absolutely no doubt that Lynn Cates is more well-versed in Nazi than myself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
so perhaps you should bring it up over dinner before Lynn turns the Barry White on.
How on earth did you come to this specific conclusion? I've been also emailing with Rob Clack and Don Souden, you know.
Barry White? Eeww!

[lynn cates]

non issue

Hello Tom. The blood on the right hand? I have never regarded it as of any importance. (As my old professor used to say in ontology class, "What's riding on it?") I cannot see why, however, that she did not touch her right hand to the wound whilst expiring--much as I touch my face after a cut whilst shaving.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

concedo

Hello CD.

"remember we are only talking 180 degrees here, a simple half turn. If it was done gently by her killer while supporting her body, I don't think we can say conclusively that the cachous would have come flying out."

I freely grant that (surprise, surprise). Now, if there was a good reason for that turn (for example, ease of mutilation) fine (really).

Cheers.
LC