Double Event, or Triple Event?

[JTRSickert]

Hello. I just thought I should bring up an interesting subject. Not many people know this, but on the night of the Double Event, there was in fact, a third murder committed in London that night. The details can be found in Evans and Skinner's Ultimate JTR Source Book. This murder occured in the Westminster section of the city. A man named John Brown walked into a police station and turned himself in for the murder of his wife, whom he killed with a clasp knife after learning information that led him to believe that she was unfaithful to him. The story goes on to say that Brown had recently been released from the hospital shortly before the murder and his behavior had become rather different.

One interesting thing to say about this murder is, if in fact Liz Stride was not a victim a JTR but maybe a domestic attack, then that means that 3 separate murders occured on that one, terrible night. John Brown murdered his wife, Liz was murdered by an acquitance (possibly Michael Kidney), and Catherine Eddowes was murdered by Jack The Ripper.

[c.d.]

Hi JTR,

The Jack did not kill Liz Stride camp always brings up this murder to show that murder was common place in Whitechapel and women were dropping like flies. Pretty much of a straw man argument if you ask me since it was clearly a domestic.

c.d.

[DVV]

Brown was the Ripper, I think.

Who, except the Ripper himself, would kill his wife on a Ripper night ?

Amitiés,
David

[JTRSickert]

Hi JTR,

The Jack did not kill Liz Stride camp always brings up this murder to show that murder was common place in Whitechapel and women were dropping like flies. Pretty much of a straw man argument if you ask me since it was clearly a domestic.

c.d.

C.D.,

especially when this one particular murder was not in Whitechapel, but Westminster. Right in the area where Parliament, the Abbey, and Downing Street are located.

[JTRSickert]

Brown was the Ripper, I think.

Who, except the Ripper himself, would kill his wife on a Ripper night ?

Amitiés,
David

DVV<

But then, turn himself in afterwards? Me not think so.

[Hunter]

I would add that most domestics are solved because there is a clear motive that usually leads police back to the culprit; even if the killer didn't turn himself in as Brown did. We seem to forget what sets the so-called Whitechapel murders apart from the other violence that happened. They were unique, even for the East End. No apparent motive; rhyme or reason. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find any comparitive murders of prostitutes in London anywhere near the level that was experienced at that time, either in the immediate years before or after this series took place.

It may have been an odd coincidence that 3 women had their throats cut on the same night in the same city, but it is one hell of a coincidence that 2 prostitutes had their throats cut within an hour and in short walking distance of each other.

[Trevor Marriott]

I would add that most domestics are solved because there is a clear motive that usually leads police back to the culprit; even if the killer didn't turn himself in as Brown did. We seem to forget what sets the so-called Whitechapel murders apart from the other violence that happened. They were unique, even for the East End. No apparent motive; rhyme or reason. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find any comparitive murders of prostitutes in London anywhere near the level that was experienced at that time, either in the immediate years before or after this series took place.

It may have been an odd coincidence that 3 women had their throats cut on the same night in the same city, but it is one hell of a coincidence that 2 prostitutes had their throats cut within an hour and in short walking distance of each other.

You have to accept that in Victorian times the cutting of the throat was the accepted method of sending people to the after life. So its not a unique method applicable to the Whitechapel victims.

Nowadays more murders are committed by people getting stabbed than having their throats cut, its quicker,simpler,easy and less messy.

[caz]

So Trevor, me ducks, how many dirt poor women out alone on the streets after midnight get stabbed to death these days by unknown killers for no apparent reason?

Hmmmm?

Nobody who uses this argument ever demonstrates that dirt poor women were routinely having their throat cut during the LVP by unknown killers for no apparent reason.

The police, the press and the public were collectively in no doubt that something more 'orrible than usual was going down in that 'orrible part of town, mainly thanks to the one particularly 'orrible individ'l.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Hunter,

My sentiments exactly. 3 women on the same night from 3 different killers is possible, but not very likely, and especially two being so similar in regard to victim. Possible, yes.

Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

So Trevor, me ducks, how many dirt poor women out alone on the streets after midnight get stabbed to death these days by unknown killers for no apparent reason?

Hmmmm?

Nobody who uses this argument ever demonstrates that dirt poor women were routinely having their throat cut during the LVP by unknown killers for no apparent reason.

The police, the press and the public were collectively in no doubt that something more 'orrible than usual was going down in that 'orrible part of town, mainly thanks to the one particularly 'orrible individ'l.

Love,

Caz
X

perhaps i should have clarified the statement it was intended to refer to modern day murders in general and not aimed at women in any catergory.

The other point to consider is that with the cutting of the throats not being toatlly unique to the murders. how many were actualyy committed by the same person. For sure Stride and Tabram were different still a doubt also about Kelly.

In case you hadnt noticed knife crime has increased rapidly over the past few years.

[Hunter]

Its too bad that Jack didn't have a copy of 'Serial killing for dummies', which would have told him that he had to do everything a cetain way each time or he might not get credit for it.

Oh!... wait a minute... lets see... Tabram was a one off because she was stabbed instead of cut. Nichols and Chapman may have fallen by the same hand, but give us enough time and we'll figure out a way to change that. Stride was a one off. Eddowes was a one off because the same "skill" wasn't shown as in Chapman's. And now, Kelly's is a one off as well for heaven knows what reason... Let's see... that leaves 2 Ripper killings... maybe. Since the definition of a serial killer is someone who kills 3 or more in sequence, then we have no serial killer at all.

How stupid the police, the press and the public were back then for believing all of that serial killer rubbish.After all, prostitutes had always been dropping like flies, hadn't they? Its so refreshing to know we are so much smarter than they were. Why, just the other day I met an intellectual type guy that was wearing a white sock and a black sock and when I asked him "Why are you wearing a white sock and a black sock ?", he argued that he had a pair just like them at home.

[Trevor Marriott]

Its too bad that Jack didn't have a copy of 'Serial killing for dummies', which would have told him that he had to do everything a cetain way each time or he might not get credit for it.

Oh!... wait a minute... lets see... Tabram was a one off because she was stabbed instead of cut. Nichols and Chapman may have fallen by the same hand, but give us enough time and we'll figure out a way to change that. Stride was a one off. Eddowes was a one off because the same "skill" wasn't shown as in Chapman's. And now, Kelly's is a one off as well for heaven knows what reason... Let's see... that leaves 2 Ripper killings... maybe. Since the definition of a serial killer is someone who kills 3 or more in sequence, then we have no serial killer at all.

How stupid the police, the press and the public were back then for believing all of that serial killer rubbish.After all, prostitutes had always been dropping like flies, hadn't they? Its so refreshing to know we are so much smarter than they were. Why, just the other day I met an intellectual type guy that was wearing a white sock and a black sock and when I asked him "Why are you wearing a white sock and a black sock ?", he argued that he had a pair just like them at home.

Lets get this right because it seems to me you personally are hell bent on arguing about issues just for the sake of arguing and trying to impose you arguments on others.

Are you suggesting that all of the Whitechapel victims were killed by the same hand. And your only evidence to suggest that is correct is the fact that they were all killed by someone using a knife.

Using other analogies in the case of the double event. If 2 motor vehicles were stolen from Whitechapel tonight would the police suspect the same person responsible--------------------

If 3 burglaries occurred in Whitchapel over the next 7 days would they suspect the same person.

The answer is no in both cases because each case is looked at differently it is only then when any marked similarites appear which may suggest the same person. the various lines of enquiry are introduced.

The police in Whitechapel had never dealt with a series of such murders before. It was a natural thing for them to initally beleive all were carried out by the same person. But of cause 120 years later and with more knowledge and expertise at our disposal we can look back at these murders and cast a serious doubt about their inital views.

[robhouse]

"For sure Stride and Tabram were different still a doubt also about Kelly."

I never understand this type of statement... I do not this much is "for sure" regarding who was or was not a Ripper victim. Moreover, in some serial murder cases, the police have underestimated the number of murders committed by one individual, because of perceived differences in MO etc. The Yorkshire Ripper case I think was one example.

I think Hunter's point is pretty much correct. Serial Killers do not always act predictably, or consistently... to make assumptions about how they would act in a given scenario, especially based on a very limited data set (5 murders) would be a grave mistake. I personally do not doubt that the c5 were all committed by the Ripper, and I would probably add a few others in there as well. (Tabram, Millwood is possible, etc)

Rob H

[Trevor Marriott]

"For sure Stride and Tabram were different still a doubt also about Kelly."

I never understand this type of statement... I do not this much is "for sure" regarding who was or was not a Ripper victim. Moreover, in some serial murder cases, the police have underestimated the number of murders committed by one individual, because of perceived differences in MO etc. The Yorkshire Ripper case I think was one example.

I think Hunter's point is pretty much correct. Serial Killers do not always act predictably, or consistently... to make assumptions about how they would act in a given scenario, especially based on a very limited data set (5 murders) would be a grave mistake. I personally do not doubt that the c5 were all committed by the Ripper, and I would probably add a few others in there as well. (Tabram, Millwood is possible, etc)

Rob H

The Ripper case has never been clear cut (no pun intended)

However as an investigator its as much about trying to prove who it wasnt as who it was. The same applies to the victims, who were and who wernt. The evidence such as is it doesnt help and all the doctors agree to disagree.

You have only got to look at the various murders a blind man can see so many differences between them. Now the odd one you could say perhaps he changed his MO but these are major differences. According to what you expect us to belieive he changed his MO more often than he change his socks

The trouble is some people on here wont look at it in that light. They have come into this mystery beliving JTR killed all whom it was sugested he killed, and are not prepared to serioulsy consider anyhting to the contrary.

As to Peter Sutcliife most of his early murders were all committed in the same way using his hammer to hit the victims over the head. It was later that he changed his MO. His murder ran from 1969 -1978 thats 8 years. With the number of murders he committed you would not expect each one to be identical.

With JTR we are talking about a matter of weeks.

If you serioulsy still belive JTR killed the canonical 5 then you need to sit down and go back and re assess and re evaluate your thinking behind your belief. Maybe Hunter might you should invite Hunter to join you !

[The Good Michael]

Trevor,

We don't even know the M.O. We can surmise some details, but that's all it is, surmise. A case can be made for all the victims Rob Mentioned plus others such as MacKenzie. If we knew exactly how each victim was selected and approached, made or asked to be positioned, how the suspect was dressed, did he smile, did he give flowers, then we might know the M.O. We don't know any of those things. Any attempt to tell others they are wrong about who the victims may have been, is BS. So knock the smug BS off.

Mike