Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Phil H]

Apart from the location (which was possibly in Jack's territory - on the assumption that Stride was a JtR victim) I see no reason for assuming that the Pinchen St torso was the work of our man. The state of the "body" does not really tie in fo me.

I am aware of the view (in my opinion, flimsy) that it would be odd for more than one murderer to be at work in the same urban area at the same time. Yet we know of other "domestics" (though I do not believe the torso was from one of those) and we also have - much more to the point - the well established "Torso killer".

Now, if you include in your 14 the Pinchen St torso, why not also the New Scotland Yard remains, or other bodies found in or near the River Thames in that or adjacent years? Surely they bear more similarity to the Pinchen St remains than JtR's usually ascribed work?

Further - what about the possibility that the Torso Killer placed the Pinchen St torso in "Jack's" patch deliberately, to taunt, to compete or for some other reason?

I'd be interested in your views, Uncle Jack,

Phil

[sdreid]

Yes, I expect if you tallied up all the possibles, you could run up a body count of 30 or such.

[Phil H]

There is an illustration on p94 of "Scotland Yard Investigates" (p/back edition) showing Death writing the locations of unsolved murders on a fence. It includes "Pimlico" immediately under the Whitechapel sites which are bracketed, and several other place names.

Has anyone ever explored the circumstances of these other (then recent) murders? Could any of them be the work of JtR as he "learned his craft"?

Phil

[Chava]

I have to assume he made mistakes along the line and that there were women who were attacked but not killed who for whatever circumstance (other people happening along and the attacker running like hell or whatever) thought they were the victims of an aborted robbery or rape. One thing I cannot believe is that he emerged with a fully fledged and highly-effective MO from scratch. Personally I'm with all of you who think Tabram is a highly possible first kill. I didn't think that for years. But looking at that kill, it's hard for me to believe it wasn't the Ripper in his first successful murder.

[Robert]

I don't know whether he attacked Millwood or not, but I can't help feeling that IF he did, he bore some of the blame for her death. But was it actually murder? This link says yes - and no!

http://www.casebook.org/victims/millwood.html

[sdreid]

I always believed Millwood's death was a belated result of the attack. It was one heck of a coincidence otherwise. Since it was, by all indications, that her assailant was intending to inflict injuries that would end her life and it apparently did cease as a result; that's the definition of murder in my book.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I would argue that the hallmark was cutting the throat in a way the blood would flow away from him.

Was this something learned bewteen first attack and Nichols, or something he knew about pre attacks on women? I suppose that is the key.

I would guess that this is something he knew prior to attacking women, and as such this would rule out Tabram and the like (for me).

I'll go with Nichols being the first, unless there are others prior to her murder in other countries. I'd add Coles as one not usually attributed to Jack that was actually his work.

[Ben]

Hi Fleets,

Was this something learned bewteen first attack and Nichols, or something he knew about pre attacks on women? I suppose that is the key.

Most serial killers acquire the skills for their grisly craft as they progress, rather than being ready-made killers from the outset. Their first attack(s) are often semi-botched jobs that bear little resemblance to their later crimes. Unless JTR was exceptionally rare amongst serial killers, Nichols was unlikely to have been his first offense. Instead, I'd be looking at Tabram, Wilson and Millwood as possible attacks from a serial killer whose "MO" was then in its infancy.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

The principle difficulty in deciding his first kill is that we don't know who our killer is.
If we can't determine whether he was a Soldier, Sailor, Foreigner, Educated man, or local Dosser then we don't know whether he could have killed abroad as the Foreigner, Soldier or Sailor.

A local Dosser (Workhouse Inmate?) who assisted as a Mortuary Attendent needs little experience to kill when he deals with bodies all day long.
An educated man could be a man of means, medical man, student or an eccentric who could also have travelled even if only throughout the British Isles.

I always thought Nichols was the first of the series, but if the method used on her which I perceive is correct, then her killer has killed before.
And, I'm inclined to agree with Dr. Brownfield that the police investigation of the Ripper series might have been oblivious to the possible use of a garrote to subdue the victims.
This is a tool that might indicate an experienced hand at work.

Everything is guesswork...

Regards, Jon S.

[sdreid]

I would argue that the hallmark was cutting the throat in a way the blood would flow away from him.

Was this something learned bewteen first attack and Nichols, or something he knew about pre attacks on women? I suppose that is the key.

And what earlier murder could he have learned this? The only possible one I can think of is the 1887 Rainham Torso who could have been killed by a cut throat but we can't tell for sure since she was decapitated.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

Is there a thread where I can read about the 'Paris outrage'?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sdreid]

Hi Tom:

I don't know of one but it's in the older version of A-Z under "France, Murders In".

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Stan. I figured if anyone knew it would be you.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Hi all,
Is there a thread where I can read about the 'Paris outrage'?

What's the Paris outrage (and I'm surprised I wasn't involved in)?
Seriously, does it have anything to do with the murders by Henri Vidal or with the murders at the Rue Montaigne?
By the by, I've recently researched criminal records in Paris and the Le Grand's arrested and gone to trial in 1884 and 1889 are NOT the one in question.

As for the Ripper's first (known) victim, it depends on suspectology: With Kozminski or an unknown local I would start with Millwood (or even Ada Wilson), with Le Grand as a suspect I'd start with Emma Smith.

[Tom_Wescott]

I've recently researched criminal records in Paris and the Le Grand's arrested and gone to trial in 1884 and 1889 are NOT the one in question.

That sucks. I was hoping to prove he could be in two places at once. That would surely place him in the lead as a suspect, if nothing else does. Debs hasn't found a death certificate on him yet, so Le Grand's mortality has not yet been proven.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott