Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
In a nutshell, can you tell me why you DONT think she was a ripper victim?

Hello, Abby.

Simply put, Tabram's murderer had a different psychology, different murder weapons, different MO, and different murder scene (the canonical victims were killed in secluded areas and backstreets, not the stairway of a public building). Then in the space of just three weeks he switches to cutting throats (almost to the point of decapitation), and focuses on abdominal mutilations with long deep cuts instead of frenzied stabbing.

The main reasons people seem inclined to include her is because she was another prostitute killed in a vicious knife attack in the same neighbourhood as the other victims, shortly before the first canonical murder. The methodology itself would suggest otherwise.

[Abby Normal]

Hello, Abby.

Simply put, Tabram's murderer had a different psychology, different murder weapons, different MO, and different murder scene (the canonical victims were killed in secluded areas and backstreets, not the stairway of a public building). Then in the space of just three weeks he switches to cutting throats (almost to the point of decapitation), and focuses on abdominal mutilations with long deep cuts instead of frenzied stabbing.

The main reasons people seem inclined to include her is because she was another prostitute killed in a vicious knife attack in the same neighbourhood as the other victims, shortly before the first canonical murder. The methodology itself would suggest otherwise.

Hi Harry
Thanks for the response.

different psychology-Not to my eyes. A woman murdered violently. A brutal sustained attack evidencing anger and overkill. As an early victim the psychology points to escalation in later attacks as the killer learns how to kill more efficiently and the fantasy grows.

different murder weapons-No.murder weapon was hands for strangulation in conjunction with extensive use of a knife. same for all.

different MO-Not really.Tabram was strangled first and then cut with a knife-same as the others. any minor differences can be chalked up to different circumstances and escalation. Its now very well known that serial killers change there MO (and even their sig) as they evolve.

different murder scene- No.all were killed in public spaces except Kelly. And Places where the victim in all likelihood led them their.

Then in the space of just three weeks he switches to cutting throats (almost to the point of decapitation), and focuses on abdominal mutilations with long deep cuts instead of frenzied stabbing.

Escalation-increasing the fantasy and learning how to kill/quiet/subdue victims more efficiently. I would imagine that he learned from the Tabram kill that it was too difficult, messy and not satisfying enough. There is strangulation through Tabram, Nichols and on. Abdomans/genital areas all targeted the only minor change in stabbing to cutting and then actual organ removal and mutilation.

The similarities are overwhelming compared to the differences:

Same Location type
Same geographical area
same time of night
same/close proximity in time to other murders
Same time of weekend/holiday
same pattern of beginning of month/end of month
same victimology-prostitutes
Similar MO-led by victims to murder spot, subdued, killed
Same murder weapon- knife
Typical escalation
Abdominal/genital areas targeted
Overkill
unsolved
Victim found where murder occurred
Victim found in same position
Many of the police, including Abberline, thought she was a ripper victim.

And Harry
The clincher is-This is huge and I cant emphasize enough: Tabram was found on her back, legs slightly spread and with her skirt pushed up.
That nails it.

There is no way, with all the other similarities that this is just another coincidence. She was a ripper victim.

[AlanG]

I have gone for Martha Tabram

[John G]

I would agree that Tabram, on balance of probabilities, was a victim of JtR. I would also agree that serial killer's can change their MO as they become more experienced, and that signatures can evolve. Thus, in the case of Tabram we see that the breast and genital areas are targeted and the body appears to have been posed, which appears consistent with the other C5 victims. There is also clear evidence of overkill, as with the other C5 victims. Nonetheless, although Nichols may be viewed as an escalation it does concern me somewhat that Tabram seems to have been the victim of a more frenzied assault; the other C5 victims, with the possible exception of Kelly, appear to have been murdered in a much more clinically efficient, controlled manner, although this might be explained as the killer learning from his mistakes.

I would introduce the caveat that a killer's signature remains "behaviourally similar, thematically consistent."(Schlesinger et al., 2010) In other words, "the core features of the signature will remain consistent" (Keppel et al., 2005) For that reason I would personally consider the likes of Chapman and Cream as completely hopeless suspects.

[Harry D]

*snip*

Hello, Abby.

Thanks again. You've made some valid points, particularly about the 'posing' of the victim. I will accept that and the geography are the main arguments in favour of canonizing Tabram. However, these are circumstantial when measured against the rest of the evidence. I don't think it's uncommon for victims in these kinds of murders to be found in that kind of position. Alice McKenzie also had her skirts raised, and her murder was even more Ripper-like (abdominal mutilations, slit throat). Do you accept her into the canon?

As for the rest of your post, most of these things aren't specific to Ripper victims. That Tabram was a prostitute is largely irrelevant, as is the time of the murder, since most prostitutes do their business at night. Prostitutes are vulnerable to violence, it's an occupational hazard, especially when working in a rundown area like Whitechapel which had no shortage of dodgy characters. That the murder involved a knife isn't enough either. Tabram's killer had used a penknife (and possibly a bayonet), not the long, thin, sharp blade used on the canonical victims. There were also other unsolved attacks in the surrounding area. It's a little naive to think that the Ripper was the only man in the district capable of carrying out this kind of violence against women.

Most serial killers are driven by a certain fantasy, in the Ripper's case it was one that involved slicing open the victim and removing their organs. Where did this come from if it wasn't alive during the Tabram murder? This was a woman who had been stabbed *39* times. Her murder wasn't incomplete, the killer did what he set out to do. Therefore this was someone who either had a serious stabbing fetish or someone who had burst into a fit of anger. And if we have a killer like JTR who is prone to this kind of stabbing frenzy, why didn't it show itself in any of the other canonical murders?

As for the 'escalation' between Tabram to Nichols, sorry but I don't see it. There is a clear escalation of violence across the canonical murders but the killer's signature more or less remained consistent (throat cut, carotid artery severed, evisceration). What we have with Tabram is a different MO and post-mortem signature. In a matter of three weeks we have a killer who out of nowhere goes from frenzied stabbing to methodical slicing and throat slashing (whilst careful to avoid arterial spray). Of course it's possible, and I'd be more inclined to believe it if the murders were spaced further apart, but definitely not within that time-frame.

When it comes to Tabram's killer there's more evidence to support the 'soldier' theory than JTR. Tabram had been soliciting soldiers that night, and a grenadier was seen outside George Yard 'waiting for a friend' around the time she was murdered. In all probability she upset the wrong punter and paid the price. The wild, uncontrollable stabbing seems more like a natural reaction in this kind of scenario, whereas throat-slashing is more a premeditated act.

[Abby Normal]

Hello, Abby.

Thanks again. You've made some valid points, particularly about the 'posing' of the victim. I will accept that and the geography are the main arguments in favour of canonizing Tabram. However, these are circumstantial when measured against the rest of the evidence. I don't think it's uncommon for victims in these kinds of murders to be found in that kind of position. Alice McKenzie also had her skirts raised, and her murder was even more Ripper-like (abdominal mutilations, slit throat). Do you accept her into the canon?

As for the rest of your post, most of these things aren't specific to Ripper victims. That Tabram was a prostitute is largely irrelevant, as is the time of the murder, since most prostitutes do their business at night. Prostitutes are vulnerable to violence, it's an occupational hazard, especially when working in a rundown area like Whitechapel which had no shortage of dodgy characters. That the murder involved a knife isn't enough either. Tabram's killer had used a penknife (and possibly a bayonet), not the long, thin, sharp blade used on the canonical victims. There were also other unsolved attacks in the surrounding area. It's a little naive to think that the Ripper was the only man in the district capable of carrying out this kind of violence against women.

Most serial killers are driven by a certain fantasy, in the Ripper's case it was one that involved slicing open the victim and removing their organs. Where did this come from if it wasn't alive during the Tabram murder? This was a woman who had been stabbed *39* times. Her murder wasn't incomplete, the killer did what he set out to do. Therefore this was someone who either had a serious stabbing fetish or someone who had burst into a fit of anger. And if we have a killer like JTR who is prone to this kind of stabbing frenzy, why didn't it show itself in any of the other canonical murders?

As for the 'escalation' between Tabram to Nichols, sorry but I don't see it. There is a clear escalation of violence across the canonical murders but the killer's signature more or less remained consistent (throat cut, carotid artery severed, evisceration). What we have with Tabram is a different MO and post-mortem signature. In a matter of three weeks we have a killer who out of nowhere goes from frenzied stabbing to methodical slicing and throat slashing (whilst careful to avoid arterial spray). Of course it's possible, and I'd be more inclined to believe it if the murders were spaced further apart, but definitely not within that time-frame.

When it comes to Tabram's killer there's more evidence to support the 'soldier' theory than JTR. Tabram had been soliciting soldiers that night, and a grenadier was seen outside George Yard 'waiting for a friend' around the time she was murdered. In all probability she upset the wrong punter and paid the price. The wild, uncontrollable stabbing seems more like a natural reaction in this kind of scenario, whereas throat-slashing is more a premeditated act.

Thanks for the response Harry
I see what your saying but still disagree for the most part.

Thanks again. You've made some valid points, particularly about the 'posing' of the victim. I will accept that and the geography are the main arguments in favour of canonizing Tabram. However, these are circumstantial when measured against the rest of the evidence. I don't think it's uncommon for victims in these kinds of murders to be found in that kind of position.

What kind of murders, though, Harry?
Eventhough the east end was a brutal place, women murdered, let alone by knife, was extremely rare. I believe it was Colin Roberts, a stat guru here on these boards, showed that in the years before and right after 1988, a very low, about the same number of women were killed( I believe it was around 11 or so) and that in 1988 it spiked by, wait for it...approx. 6 victims.
And then add to it that Tabram was found on her back with skirt raised.

Sorry, something is going on here other than just an irate customer.
Why raise the skirt? Hes killed her she's dead, according to you that should be end of story.
The raised skirt shows part of the killers MO and fascination with the female private parts and abdomen.

Alice McKenzie also had her skirts raised, and her murder was even more Ripper-like (abdominal mutilations, slit throat). Do you accept her into the canon?

Yes, I think she was probably a ripper victim.

As for the rest of your post, most of these things aren't specific to Ripper victims. That Tabram was a prostitute is largely irrelevant, as is the time of the murder, since most prostitutes do their business at night. Prostitutes are vulnerable to violence, it's an occupational hazard, especially when working in a rundown area like Whitechapel which had no shortage of dodgy characters. That the murder involved a knife isn't enough either. Tabram's killer had used a penknife (and possibly a bayonet), not the long, thin, sharp blade used on the canonical victims. There were also other unsolved attacks in the surrounding area. It's a little naive to think that the Ripper was the only man in the district capable of carrying out this kind of violence against women.

But he was the only(uncaught) killer in that time frame that was murdering women on the streets by knife in the east end.

And as for the apparent difference in the knife/knives used in Tabram: What is Naïve, Harry, is to think that a serial killer is going to stick to the exact same murder weapon throughout all the victims. Especially one who is obviously fascinated by what a knife can do to the female body and has obvious experience and skill with a knife. He probably had a collection of them.
I would venture that after the messy Tabram murder, if indeed it was a different knife used in later victims-the ripper switched to a knife that he felt might work better.

Most serial killers are driven by a certain fantasy, in the Ripper's case it was one that involved slicing open the victim and removing their organs. Where did this come from if it wasn't alive during the Tabram murder? This was a woman who had been stabbed *39* times. Her murder wasn't incomplete, the killer did what he set out to do. Therefore this was someone who either had a serious stabbing fetish or someone who had burst into a fit of anger. And if we have a killer like JTR who is prone to this kind of stabbing frenzy, why didn't it show itself in any of the other canonical murders?

His fantasy was what his knife could do to the female body-stabbing, cutting slashing, mutilating, dissecting, nicking eyelids, cutting off breasts, flaying flesh off of thighs, cutting off noses. Whatever. see what I mean.

To rule tabram out because her Knife wounds weren't similar enough is simply wrong IMHO.

Tabram was an early victim-his mature sig had not evolved yet. Just stabbing didn't do it for him.

As for the 'escalation' between Tabram to Nichols, sorry but I don't see it. There is a clear escalation of violence across the canonical murders but the killer's signature more or less remained consistent (throat cut, carotid artery severed, evisceration). What we have with Tabram is a different MO and post-mortem signature. In a matter of three weeks we have a killer who out of nowhere goes from frenzied stabbing to methodical slicing and throat slashing (whilst careful to avoid arterial spray). Of course it's possible, and I'd be more inclined to believe it if the murders were spaced further apart, but definitely not within that time-frame.

You left out strangulation-Tabram was strangled first-like the others.
Its more or less the same MO. He lets the victim lead to the secluded murder sight, incapacitate by strangling, use of knife.

Mature MO and sig evolves as the series progresses.

In a matter of three weeks we have a killer who out of nowhere goes from frenzied stabbing to methodical slicing and throat slashing (whilst careful to avoid arterial spray).

If Nichols was the first, where did he get this expertise then?

Do you think its more reasonable that a serial killer has a fully formed and mature MO with their first attempt, or that there are "practice" runs first?

The History of serial homicide proves the latter.

When it comes to Tabram's killer there's more evidence to support the 'soldier' theory than JTR. Tabram had been soliciting soldiers that night, and a grenadier was seen outside George Yard 'waiting for a friend' around the time she was murdered. In all probability she upset the wrong punter and paid the price. The wild, uncontrollable stabbing seems more like a natural reaction in this kind of scenario, whereas throat-slashing is more a premeditated act.

[/QUOTE]

Harry, this is another mistake I see time and again on these boards and drives me nuts.

The ripper could have been the man in the 'soldier' theory. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

All right we've done this to death, so I think we just need to disagree at this point, because we are on the verge of repeating ourselves.
I look forward to your reply, but I may be bowing out at this point.
Good talk.

[John G]

There were actually no murders in Whitechapel in 1886 and 1887, and one murder in both 1889 and 1890. I believe Colin Roberts' statistics demonstrated that only 11 adult women were murdered by knife in 1887 in the whole of England.

As for Tabram, Tom Westcott virtually demolished Pearly Poll as a reliable witness in the Bank Holiday Murders. And, as I've posted before, I think a soldier is probably the least likely suspect anyway. I mean, his uniform would have been covered in blood-how would he explain that when he returned to barracks? He could hardly say he cut himself shaving! And, of course, as soon as the police begin their investigations, based on Pearly Poll's evidence, someone would be bound to recall a soldier returning to barracks with a heavily blood stained uniform on the night of the murder. But no one did, so the killer wasn't a soldier.

Was he JtR? Well, Tabram was subjected to a frenzied attack, whereas Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes seemed more clinical. However, Kelly was clearly more frenzied. I also agree with Abby- the posing of the body and targeting of the breast and genital area are clearly consistent with JtR's ritual signature. I would therefore conclude that Tabram was a Ripper victim.

[sdreid]

Unless I'm out of the loop, I don't think we know where Rainham was killed.

[sdreid]

Rainham actually has 2 or 3 more votes than I thought it would get.

[John G]

Unless I'm out of the loop, I don't think we know where Rainham was killed.

Hello Stan,

We don't know where any of the Torso victims were killed. And, of course, unlike JtR the Torso murderer used dump sites and appears to have taken measures to disguise the identity of his victims- only Liz Jackson was positively identified.

[hanway3]

As a new member to this Forum, I would like to state that I have always felt that Martha Tabram was the first, and still quite convinced that the following sequence known as the Canonical 5 is the most likely to have happened.
Even a few years lurking on this site and reading many peoples varied opinions has not disuaded me of that.

[sdreid]

Hello Stan,

We don't know where any of the Torso victims were killed. And, of course, unlike JtR the Torso murderer used dump sites and appears to have taken measures to disguise the identity of his victims- only Liz Jackson was positively identified.

Very true John.

[Harry D]

As a new member to this Forum, I would like to state that I have always felt that Martha Tabram was the first, and still quite convinced that the following sequence known as the Canonical 5 is the most likely to have happened.
Even a few years lurking on this site and reading many peoples varied opinions has not disuaded me of that.

For me the time span is too short for the killer to make a radical transition in MO and signature between Tabram and Nichols. I would think that the kind of frenzied stabbing witnessed in the Tabram murder would manifest itself in the C5 and yet it's conspicuous by its absence.

[John G]

For me the time span is too short for the killer to make a radical transition in MO and signature between Tabram and Nichols. I would think that the kind of frenzied stabbing witnessed in the Tabram murder would manifest itself in the C5 and yet it's conspicuous by its absence.

Hi Harry,

But doesn't Kelly suggest a more frenzied assault?

[Harry D]

Hi Harry,

But doesn't Kelly suggest a more frenzied assault?

Hello, John G.

There were a number of superfluous wounds inflicted on Mary Kelly but there was still a method involved. He wasn't randomly hacking and stabbing her, he was taking her apart, removing the body parts and arranging them almost ritualistically, some pieces were placed around Mary Kelly's person while others were placed on the table. The discrepancy in skill comes down to a change in circumstance. Before, the killer was working outside, time was of the essence if he wanted to murder his prey and take a trophy with him. It required more precision in that situation. In Miller's Court he was left all alone with the victim and was able to fully indulge himself.

Tabram's murder appears more impulsive and reckless, it bears little resemblance to the C5. As I pointed out previously, cutting someone's throat is more of a premeditated act. A more plausible scenario for Tabram is a sudden gang hit, or an angry punter who flew into a rage. That's why the soldier theory makes so much sense. We know she was soliciting them that night, and we have the grenadier loitering outside not long before her death. Now Abby previously argued that the soldier theory isn't mutually exclusive to a Ripper murder, but Tabram's killer(s) focused on the chest and the upper abdomen, whereas the canonical victims were targeted in the lower abdomen and genital area. There's a different psychology at work, engendering a different post-mortem signature. You're welcome to believe otherwise, of course.

We have a number of violent attacks on women in the vicinity of Whitechapel not accepted within the official canon (Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson, Susan Ward, Alice McKenzie, Frances Coles etc.) and those are just the ones we know about. We cannot realistically expect the Ripper to be responsible for all of them. It was a dangerous place and prostitution was and still is a dangerous profession.