Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[HelenaWojtczak]

Tabram seems to go in and out of fashion like bell bottom pants.

And when someone like me comes along fairly "fresh" to the subject, and has a scoot around ripperology just at the moment when she is out of fashion, that is what sticks in the mind.

Anyway, I am sort of glad that Tabram hasn't been completely discounted, because, obviously, I have mentioned her a few times in my book on George Chapman and would have less reason to do so if it were proved she was stabbed by two sailors, for example.

Helena

[sdreid]

Ah, and at least one thinks that Nichols wasn't a Ripper victim.

[RavenDarkendale]

Amazed by the amount of people who agree with Martha Tabram being JtR's first victim. She gets my vote here, but I think there could be others before her, not Smith however. Probably not even reported, as I read that over 200 murders or suspicious deaths took place in the Whitechapel area in 1888. The value of human life in that place and time didn't amount to much...

[sdreid]

Well, four are above "Another" - Tabram, Nichols, Millwood and Smith

[Phil H]

Well, I see no similarities between the murder of Tabram and the work of "Jack" - and I have been wrestling with the enigma for years.

The coming into and going out of fashion is, of course, a reflection of writers wanting the facts to fit their theories rather than fitting theories to facts. Thus if a writer needs 10 victims, in comes Martha. If someone wants to have no single "Ripper" out she goes.

We have so little to work on that I guess it is tempting to find the "apprentice" work where we can, ahead of Nichols. Yet I find more intriguing similarities with McKenzie than I do with Tabram. Yet McKernzie is normally written off.

Perception has a part here too. We tend to see and perhaps impose on the case an ascending scale of horror. Stabbing leads to ripping, ripping to disembowelment, that to facial mutilation and worse plundering and finally to the horror in Millers Court.

But consider a different path and the images change as do assumptions. If Kelly, for instance was left out of the sequence, the ascending scale is slightly subdued. We might then consider an ailing "Jack" who can only try feebly to repeat his earlier work, when he meets McKenzie in Castle Alley.

My point is that our assessment of how potential victims "fit in" to the wider cycle of murders, tends to match our overall perception. Maybe it is time to go back to first principles.

Phil H

[Abby Normal]

- and I have been wrestling with the enigma for years.

The coming into and going out of fashion is, of course, a reflection of writers wanting the facts to fit their theories rather than fitting theories to facts. Thus if a writer needs 10 victims, in comes Martha. If someone wants to have no single "Ripper" out she goes.

We have so little to work on that I guess it is tempting to find the "apprentice" work where we can, ahead of Nichols. Yet I find more intriguing similarities with McKenzie than I do with Tabram. Yet McKernzie is normally written off.

Perception has a part here too. We tend to see and perhaps impose on the case an ascending scale of horror. Stabbing leads to ripping, ripping to disembowelment, that to facial mutilation and worse plundering and finally to the horror in Millers Court.

But consider a different path and the images change as do assumptions. If Kelly, for instance was left out of the sequence, the ascending scale is slightly subdued. We might then consider an ailing "Jack" who can only try feebly to repeat his earlier work, when he meets McKenzie in Castle Alley.

My point is that our assessment of how potential victims "fit in" to the wider cycle of murders, tends to match our overall perception. Maybe it is time to go back to first principles.

Phil H

Hi Phil

Well, I see no similarities between the murder of Tabram and the work of "Jack"

Really? None?

She was a prostitute
Murdered by knife
abdoman targeted
signs of strangulation
Holiday
Whitechapel area
killed late at night
in public, but out of the way("alley way")
found on back, legs spread
skirt lifted
no one saw anything
unsolved
close in time frame to other murders
close in proximity to other murders

also, consider this pattern:

Tabram: Beginning of Month
Nichols: end of month
Chapman:Beginning of month
Stride/Eddowes: End of month
Kelly: Beginning of month

[Phil H]

She was a prostitute - so were many other women in Whitechapel at the time, but we don't jump to the conclusion that McKenzie, Coles, etc wwere all "Jack's" work, do we?

Murdered by knife - knife crimes often use a knife surprisingly! In this case there seems to be evidence of two blades.

abdoman targeted - but apparently by stabbing, not ripping.

Holiday - a good time for murder

Whitechapel area - so did "Jack" kill every woman in the Whitechapel area...

I could go on, but the basic argument you advance is facile.

I see no similarity that would lead me to conclude that Martha was killed by the same man who killed Polly. Neither do I believe that Emma Smith was a jack victim, though many of the arguments you assert would be equally true. I also think in her case that her story may not be true, given the inconsistencies.

I am much more prone to believe that soldiers killed Martha and that Pearly Poll Connelly knew more than she was letting on and was scared by something.

I thus remain of my stated view.

Phil H

[sdreid]

It doesn't mean that she was a Ripper victim but Smith's story always seemed fishy to me.

[sdreid]

So about 1 in 2 think it's Tabram - 1 in 4 Nichols - 1 in 12 Millwood and 1 in 16 think it was Smith.

[sdreid]

The Horsnail death is at the 125 year mark now.

[sdreid]

The Horsnail death is at the 125 year mark now.

And, about one out of 50 think it's her.

[sdreid]

We've just pasted the Fairy Fay quasquicentennial as well.

[Moriarty2000]

Yes I would go for Tabram, even though she was stabbed many times as opposed to cut open.

[Bridewell]

Tabram

Yes I would go for Tabram, even though she was stabbed many times as opposed to cut open.

Hi Moriarty,

Welcome to the Boards. On balance, I'm inclined to think that Tabram was a Ripper victim, but there are arguments for and against and the issue is hotly debated - as you may be about to find out!

[Moriarty2000]

Thank you for your welcome Bridewell.