Victim Conversation (off-topic moved)

[Celesta]

Ally, I'm glad I saw your post #104. By coincidence, I came close to making that kind of judgment, re criminal acts, last night. Fortunately, I reconsidered. Good reminder. Thanks.

[Ally]

So the thought process of child molestation is too alien for you to empathize with, but the process of child abandonment is something you can understand?

[babybird67]

i can understand child abandonment...

in the context of the victims' lives, yes, without condoning it or agreeing that they made the right choice.

[Ally]

Then why can't you understand child molestation in context without condoning it. After all, you are the one who argues that children follow what they are taught and that they can't be expected to do other than what they've known. So the thought process of a child molester is a very simple one: it was done to me, therefore I will do the same.

So if you can understand one situation without "condoning" it, why not the other? Especially since the argument is one you frequently make.

[babybird67]

i dont know Ally...

i just can't. It's something i've been thinking about since you asked me the question...and if i knew i would tell you! No matter how hard i try, i just cannot get myself into a place where i am able to empathise once that line has been crossed.

I think it may have something to do with active intent. I can see child neglect and abandonment arising out of alcoholism and drug use, almost accidentally; in that, the women at the time maybe didnt think, right i am going to abandon my kids because i'll be better off...i can see them just drifting into it, if that makes sense.

I dont think you drift into child molestation though. I think there has to be an active intent to harm - and i just cannot get my head in that place.

Does that make sense?

[Ally]

What is clear is that despite you saying again and again that your assessment of empathy is a dispassionate one, and has nothing to do with ethical considerations, it in fact does. By the very nature of you trying to say that intent plays a part in whether you are able to empathize with a person, you are in fact making a moral judgment on a persons behavior.


A person fires a gun intending to kill a person and does kill that person.

A person fires a gun, not intending to kill another person, and does kill a person.

The actions are the same and the result is the same, the only thing that differs is the intent. By saying you could empathize with the one but not the other, you are making a moral judgment.

[babybird67]

i dont think so Ally...

i can understand child abandonment, whilst morally condeming it. It should theoretically be possible to understand molestation as well, without condoning it, i'm just not that good at empathy!

Oh you just added a bit about the gun situation...well if one is accidental, it is easy to empathise, because we all have accidents. We dont all kill people, so what it takes to kill a person, to be capable of deliberately killing a person, is harder to comprehend, and i cant understand it. It doesnt mean i would condone one killing and not the other though.

[Cap'n Jack]

Don
that's a tad unfair seeing that I live in the LVP whilst you appear to inhabit some strange planet where the dissection of original thought results in meaningless cant.

[Tom_Wescott]

AP,

You live in the LVP? So you're saying that child abandonment and abuse is the norm for you?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mr Chumley]

still going..contemplation of killing coldly in a detached way is hard to feel comfortable with, but its like taking that first drink of the evening..it just gets easier with practice

[Supe]

A.P.,

Observation confirmed by your reply--your assertion is mere bombast.

Living in the LVP, eh? No wonder you are so dismissive of those who earn a living by writing as even pocket change must allow you to have a comfortable existence. I wonder, though, aren't merchants a bit suspicious of decimal coinage?

Don.

[Brenda]

I'm still not sure "empathy" is being used correctly here. I was always taught that you feel "empathy" for someone when you know EXACTLY how they feel - because you've been there yourself. Example: if you used to weigh a lot but lost weight, you might feel empathy if you encountered a heavy person being harshly criticized for their size. You probably went through the same thing before and you know just how bad the current heavy person is feeling inside. However, if Kate Moss is also standing there hearing the same criticism, she is (maybe) feeling sympathy for the heavy person, but she really doesn't know EXACTLY how the heavy person feels, as she has been thin all of her life. She may not understand the level of self esteem issues involved.

However, if Kate Moss has been severely criticized in her lifetime, she may be feeling the empathy for the person having to endure the emotional pain of the harsh judgment. So, as Babybird pointed out, it DOES depend on the individual circumstance and perspective.

As far as the victims, I HOPE none of us here know exactly what it is like to be in their shoes, but you never know. I think most of us feel sympathy....which is a good thing, by the way. There's a big difference between a sympathetic person and a "bleeding heart". I think Allly is disliking the bleeding heart types that tend to romanticize the victims, and I don't blame her, it kind of gets on my nerves too. But it is possible to care about these women (and others like them) while at the same time realizing they probably wouldn't have been someone we would have necessarily wanted to socialize with.

As far as CHILD MOLESTERS...I sincerely hope nobody here can empathize with a child molester! However, a little sympathy is okay when you realize these people have something seriously wrong and/or missing inside their brains. But that would be another thread.....

[Cap'n Jack]

Don

you cant better than I rant, that's for sure, and I take any coinage, accepting of course the Yankee dollar.
You come from a solid core, that's for sure,
them who profit from deaths of whores.

[Jeff Leahy]

I’m sorry but getting back to the core argument (what you do or do not choose to feel about childmollesters in the 21st century is your own business)

However you have no evidence what so ever that all the victims of Jack the Ripper were bad mothers. (Most of you don’t even seem to be able to get the body count correct anyway)

So perhaps one of you would like to explain how you feel Elizabeth Stride was a bad mother?

And lets get to the nitty gritty about Kate Eddowes. Why is she such a bad mother? She may have fallen out with her daughter later in life but I seem to remember that the daughter attended her mother’s funeral and was highly upset about her mother’s death.

On those grounds I say Kate obviously did something right at some point and thus must have been a GOOD mother.

Did she have the same CHIOCE when leaving her sons as she would have had today?…NO

It was a choice based in the reality of 1888. Remember children were still used as cheap labour and left school at 14. You simply can NOT compare these women’s choices with those of a load of Fat Americans sat in luxury, burning up all the worlds resources and slowly destroying, our planet, while pointing their chubby finger at these women.

They were NOT bad mothers; some may have been mothers that did some bad things. But you have NO idea if, on balance, they did more good than bad…

You’re guessing, and that’s bad Ripperology. Either supply proof or shut up.

Pirate

PS and lets get this straight , it is Ally that is doing the romantisizing here, the rest of us are working to the FACTS,

[Ally]

Don

you cant better than I rant, that's for sure, and I take any coinage, accepting of course the Yankee dollar.
You come from a solid core, that's for sure,
them who profit from deaths of whores.

__________________
You mean profit like you did with your published work on the subject of dead whores, titled after their killer, for coinage of all kind including the Yankee dollar? And it's nice to know you are finally admitting your grasping tendencies in accepting the Yankee Dollar.