Victim Conversation (off-topic moved)

[babybird67]

Ally

no, rather lazily i didnt search around at all...i just picked the first one thrown up by my PC as i am multi-tasking talking to Steve in the chatroom!


And i agree - the definition of empathy IS very complex and throws up complex, intricate emotions...reflecting the complexity of the human mind and the complexity of making choices in the random and chaotic world in which we live.

I can empathise with the victims without having moral approval of everything they did. Empathy is not about exoneration or excusing...it is about UNDERSTANDING.

[Jeff Leahy]

No, you are full of idiocy Leahy and once again, your inability to comprehend what you read makes you look like an idiot.

I never said people have unlimited choices. I said in every circumstance they have * A * choice. A person in Ethiopa still has a choice. They can work hard scrabble and do their best to survive and maybe they make it and maybe they don't, but if they lay down in the gutter and don't even try, they definitely aren't going to make it.

And these woman that we are discussing ALL had better circumstances and ALL had better options that they CHOSE to piss away.

No Ryder it is you that are missing the point. Are you trying to agrue? that 'luck' is not the intrinsic igreedient of existence?

Because what ever their choices, the percentage odds of bumping into the notorious serial killer of all time at that particular moment in history seems almost infinitively high. And luck surely dictates what choices we will be faced with?

Let go the control freak within you

Pirate

[babybird67]

hi again Tom

Babybird,

You don't seem stupid at all, but perhaps a bit naive. I think Ally is offended by naive women with rose-colored glasses. Or at least women she perceives as such. I can understand that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yep, probably guilty as charged. I probably AM naive. But so what? It takes all sorts to make the world go round, doesn't it? I am sure a world full of Allys would be heavenly to some, but maybe hellish for others?

I tend to be idealistic, and optimistic, where others perhaps are more realistic and pessimistic.

I have teaching as my background, hence my belief that learning comes from growing within a supportive atmosphere, not one where the first foot you put wrong brings you unstinting condemnation and a "you deserve what you get" attitude.

A cursory glance at the varied contexts that people around the world grow up in belies the suggestion that good choices are always available to all. They are not. Neither is everyone equipped equally to make those choices.

Choice, or the lack of it, is situation and context-specific. There are no hard and fast rules, absolute truths or moral imperatives in that sense; each person must be judged within their own context and the choices available to them at that time.

And once again, moral approval is not necessary to the experience of empathy.

best wishes

[Ally]

No Ryder it is you that are missing the point. Are you trying to agrue? that 'luck' is not the intrinsic igreedient of existence?

Because what ever their choices, the percentage odds of bumping into the notorious serial killer of all time at that particular moment in history seems almost infinitively high. And luck surely dictates what choices we will be faced with?

Let go the control freak within you

Pirate

I really should stop attempting to have conversations with the mentally defective who can't comprehend simple concepts. No, luck doesn't have anything to do with how a person lives their life. Choice does.

You are talking about random death. A person can get hit by a meteor or struck by lightning or be killed by a serial killer or a mob on the street and that relates to CHANCE, random circumstances beyond control. But chance has nothing ..absolutely NOTHING to do... with the choices they make in how they live their lives.

[Ally]

Tom,

I am just as offended by bleeding heart, excuse for everything, poor victims of the world men as I am women. Gender is irrelevant when it comes to the perpetual cycle of finding excuses for what people choose to do.

[babybird67]

Ally

Tom,

I am just as offended by bleeding heart, excuse for everything, poor victims of the world men as I am women. Gender is irrelevant when it comes to the perpetual cycle of finding excuses for what people choose to do.

why do you persist in misrepresenting my opinion?

I have never used the word "excuse" or suggested that excuses should be made for anyone, and i would be grateful if you could stop implying that i have. You do not have to resort to misrepresenting someone to win an argument: your intellect is stronger than that.

What i have said, is that one can have empathy for others, and try to understand how their lives turned out as they did: this does not absolve any of them of the responsibility for their own choices; it does however acknowledge that all choices are not available to all people at all times.

[Ally]

You say tomato, I say tomahto. There is no way I could ever have empathy for anyone who lies, cheats, steals and abandons children as a natural part of their lives.

The absolute only way I can see ANYONE being able to have empathy for a person like that is if they somehow are able to rationalize and excuse the behavior.

We aren't talking about having empathy for children or real victims. We are talking about having empathy for people who made choices, and the only way I can possibly see anyone having empathy under those circumstances is if they have exonerated them for their choices.

Could you feel empathy for a child molester?

[Jeff Leahy]

Then I suggest you try reading "Brim stone and treacle' By Dennis Potter

The fact is that from good choices often comes bad, and vice versa.

Our chioces, good or bad, like existance, are all just a question of luck..Unless of course your Obeone Canobe..

I will leave you to your fixed and bleak version of the world Ally

Byee

Pirate

[Ally]

I have a much less bleak view of the world than you do. I believe that men and women who encourage their strengths and put down their weaknesses can build a good future. You seem to think that no matter what we do it's all meaningless and random and up to chance, which means nothing that we do matters.

I would say your interpretation of life is much more pessimistic than mine.

[babybird67]

You say tomato, I say tomahto. There is no way I could ever have empathy for anyone who lies, cheats, steals and abandons children as a natural part of their lives.

The absolute only way I can see ANYONE being able to have empathy for a person like that is if they somehow are able to rationalize and excuse the behavior.

We aren't talking about having empathy for children or real victims. We are talking about having empathy for people who made choices, and the only way I can possibly see anyone having empathy under those circumstances is if they have exonerated them for their choices.

Could you feel empathy for a child molester?

The fact remains Ally that never have i used either the word or the concept of excuse in any of my postings in relation to this topic, nor did i used it in the chatroom when we were discussing this earlier.

Why do you keep confusing empathy with moral opprobrium or approval? Ethical considerations are not what empathy is about. Empathy is about seeking to understand the set of circumstances which lead the human beings embroiled in those circumstances to make the choices, good or bad, that they make. Only by seeking an understanding as to how those choices were arrived at, can you seek to help and resolve issues which lead to bad choices being made.

Take people who study serial killers. They are seeking an understanding of what led that person to become a serial killer; all sorts of constants and variables are recognised, and from building up the picture, such commonalities as early childhood abuse and its link with later criminality, can be identified, and then, once identified and understood, tackled by society. One doesnt have to approve of murderers to seek out an understanding of how and why they became what they became.

Once again, i have not, nor do i wish to, exonerate or excuse any of the victim's bad choices; i would like to understand them, however, and it is only by feeling an empathy with what life may have been like for them that this is possible, imo.

Now i am going for a break! Much as i enjoy a philosophical battle, it is still tiring!

see you later

[Mr Chumley]

Bet old Jack would love this debate over his deeds, did he have a choice, was it chance, luck,insecure potty training or random chaos theory that led to him to that eventful juxtaposition in the cosmos...the hang on have i just empathised with him

[Ally]

Because while you keep using the word empathy to describe what you say you are debating, you are in fact not debating empathy, you are debating sympathy. It doesn't matter what word you use in specific, especially as you persist in using the wrong word, it is the nature of the argument is what is being debated.

[Jeff Leahy]

I have a much less bleak view of the world than you do. I believe that men and women who encourage their strengths and put down their weaknesses can build a good future. You seem to think that no matter what we do it's all meaningless and random and up to chance, which means nothing that we do matters.

I would say your interpretation of life is much more pessimistic than mine.

Thats because you don't understand LOVE. You can not control LOVE.

[Mr Chumley]

whats love got to do with it

[Ally]

It's got nothing to do with it. It's just leahy's retardation and mental deficits trying to derail the conversation with inanity again.