How many victims

[andy.s]

I'm new to these forums, and up until ploughing through this wealth of information, i had only known of the 5 which my more learned posters call the "canonical" victims. I was surprised i had never heard of Martha Tabram until listening to the fascinating "rippercasts"..which i downloaded and listened to avidly hour upon hour.
In your informed opinions how many victims would you attribute to the person we know as Jack The Ripper?
apologies if this question has been asked before, and if someone would point me in the right direction, i'll happily toddle off and read it
thanks in advance
Andy

[sdreid]

When serial killers are caught, they often reveal that they killed more than was thought. The opposite rarely, if ever, occurs. I'd guess maybe 8 or 9 for Jack and many, if not all of the extras, we may not have heard of.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

sdreid,

They want to be top dog in the serial killing business, so the numbers climb, boasting is what they do, even if it is not true.

BW

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I'd take a stab and say that Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly were Jack's handiwork (excluding Stride due to major differences regarding the knife used and throat wound). But I think it's a safe bet to assume that whoever Jack was had killed before (and likely after) his canonical killings, only without ripping them.

[sdreid]

sdreid,

They want to be top dog in the serial killing business, so the numbers climb, boasting is what they do, even if it is not true.

BW

Some like Lucas are boasters but in other cases like Rader and Ridgway there is evidence to back it up. They didn't even know Lucas was a serial killer when they arrested him so there was no base suspect numbers for him to expand on. There may be one but I can't think of a serial killer who killed fewer than thought when the case was identified as such in advance of a suspect being arrested and that's what we're talking about here regarding Jack.

[perrymason]

Some like Lucas are boasters but in other cases like Rader and Ridgway there is evidence to back it up. They didn't even know Lucas was a serial killer when they arrested him so there was no base suspect numbers for him to expand on. There may be one but I can't think of a serial killer who killed fewer than thought when the case was identified as such in advance of a suspect being arrested and that's what we're talking about here regarding Jack.

Hi Stan,

Didnt Zodiak claim victims in his letters that its believed he never actually killed?

On the thread question....I personally see 3 women murdered almost identically within the Canonical Group....and one or two that might match those 3, outside it.

Cheers Stan..nice to see you.

[sdreid]

Hi PM,

Yes, Zodiac claimed he killed some that he almost surely didn't although he just gave a number not a specific victim as I remember it.

I'm talking about murders that police thought were the work of a certain serial killer and turned out not to be after the guy was caught.

The closest I can think of is Amina Agisheff who some police thought was a victim of the Green River Killer but that Ridgway denied when he was caught. He did however show that he'd killed several women that police hadn't suspected as being victims of GRK so the net gain was still much to the side of adding to the count. Some didn't think Amina was a victim from the start because she was quite a bit older than the rest and had no known connections to prostitution.

[perrymason]

Hi PM,

Yes, Zodiac claimed he killed some that he almost surely didn't although he just gave a number not a specific victim as I remember it.

I'm talking about murders that police thought were the work of a certain serial killer and turned out not to be after the guy was caught.

The closest I can think of is Amina Agisheff who some police thought was a victim of the Green River Killer but that Ridgway denied when he was caught. He did however show that he'd killed several women that police hadn't suspected as being victims of GRK so the net gain was still much to the side of adding to the count. Some didn't think Amina was a victim from the start because she was quite a bit older than the rest and had no known connections to prostitution.

Hey Stan,

Im going by the theatrical representation of the case facts mind you, but I believe he claimed a policeman specifically, and gave information like the shell information that was in the public domain before his letter date.

Your point is a undeniable one though....almost always there are murders or assaults not attributed to a serial killer which he actually had committed.

Cheers S a T A N ..best regards.

[JacknJill]

People sometimes count up to thirteen victims for Jack. Some I've even read say he killed up to nineteen. For the murders after the JTR period, some of them were similar enough that it seems people jumped to accuse the last criminal. Maybe it scared them that the grisly acts were being repeated, or they were worried that it could be him again - that he'd come back. One official admitted that if it was Jack they would get him for sure. Maybe they feared a repeat (If I'm making any sense)

[kensei]

If I dare to mention Patricia Cornwell here, and her insistence on who the Ripper was (which I'm not endorsing), she says in her book, "Serial killers keep killing. Sickert kept killing. His body count could have been fifteen, twenty, forty before he died peacefully in his bed in Bathampton, January 22, 1942, at the age of 81." ("Portrait of a Killer- Jack the Ripper: Case Closed" page 351.) She believes the Ripper was also the torso killer. She even blames him for killing a couple of young boys in parts of England far from London. Just pointing out how far some people have gone.

Ted Bundy was once presented with 36 as being the possible number of his victims, and famously stated, "Add one more digit to that and you've got it." No one knows if he meant 37, 136 or 361.

[perrymason]

Open-minded is always good Kensei, but I cant see that in evidence...women were not murdered in that fashion on and on after Alice. I think the trail that authorities leave us has within it some murders that indicate the Ripper had compulsions to perform acts regardless of personal risk to himself. That doesnt just go away.

I think he left, died, or went nuts and never confessed myself.

Best regards K

[Nicola]

I think Jack attacked quite a few. Exceedingly lucky women who either fought him off or he chickened out at the last moment. These failures probably fueled his rage even more. Personally,I believe he got started killing with Martha Tabram and hit his vicious stride with Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes,and Kelly. I am on the fence about Liz Stride.


I also think that he either died or went totally loony after Kelly. For this type of freak to contain himself seems utterly impossible. He doesn't seem to have the control of a BTK type.

[perrymason]

I think Jack attacked quite a few. Exceedingly lucky women who either fought him off or he chickened out at the last moment. These failures probably fueled his rage even more. Personally,I believe he got started killing with Martha Tabram and hit his vicious stride with Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes,and Kelly. I am on the fence about Liz Stride.


I also think that he either died or went totally loony after Kelly. For this type of freak to contain himself seems utterly impossible. He doesn't seem to have the control of a BTK type.

I think I may have a better way of illustrating my point Nic......are there any acts that are seen in murders from February to August 30th that show indications that the killer or killers were anatomically savy at all...or were particlularly handy using a knife?

Martha has major organs stabbed multiple times, so I would guess her killer does to some extent or was lucky when he did strike one, but no other murders showed that characteristic if it pre-existed with the killer(s). The aptitude for knife use rapidly and efficiently is the other point....is a man who's only intent seems to be murder, or perhaps murder and robbery, efficient when he expends large amounts of energy stabbing 39 times to accomplish what a single firm stroke could do instead?

In the case of 4 women killed between August 88 and August 89, there was at least one professionally given medical opinion by virtue of the postmortem or autopsy examinations or notes reviewed of them that did suggest both limited anatomical knowledge at least, and a skillful hand at times with a very sharp knife. Annies uterus is described as "perfectly intact". Kates left kidney, located towards the lower spine came out through her stomach.......and Mary Anns wounds were described like very much like Annies in this way by the Coroner at Polly's Inquest on Saturday September 22, and note the progression his thought process has.

He starts by associating 4 deaths, Ada and Emma and Martha and Polly.

"We cannot altogether leave unnoticed the fact that the death that you have been investigating is one of four presenting many points of similarity, all of which have occurred within the space of about five months, and all within a very short distance of the place where we are sitting."

Well.. we all know that Emma was assaulted by 3 or 4 men and raped and robbed, and had a blunt object inserted into her...the ultimate cause for the rupture that killed her, and Ada was stabbed in the throat when her assailant failed to get any money from her. So that statement grouping 4 under one man really makes no sense from an investigation standpoint,.. but his later summation comments concerning the likelihood that Polly and Annie were killed by the same men are more clear.....

"I suggest to you as a possibility that these two women may have been murdered by the same man with the same object, and that in the case of Nicholls the wretch was disturbed before he had accomplished his object, and having failed in the open street he tries again, within a week of his failure, in a more secluded place."

I personally subscribe to the letter on his explanation of the minor differences shown.... in only those 2 killings. This is a week before Kate is murdered. And he believes only the two occurring since Aug 31st are linked to one man, as of September 22.

Best regards all

[DarkPassenger]

Look at the Suffolk Strangler.

His "canonical five" are Tania Nichol, Gemma Adams, Anneli Alderton, Annette Nichols and Paula Clennell. But we can assume that he killed Natalie Pearman, Kellie Pratt, Mandy Duncan, Michelle Beattles and Vicki Hall. However, we do not know for certain and he certainly has not been arrested or charged with these murders. What if, during the Suffolk Investigation, the police linked these murders with the 2006 series and said they were looking for a ten-time killing instead of a five-time serialist? Would it have helped or hindered the investigation? What we do know is there was enough evidence in 2006 to convict Wright so we can assume that the evidence we do have on the 1888 murders is enough to figure out the Ripper's identity - however, with the Ripper, we have a new problem; a potential red herring in the shape of Stride. Now THAT's a big problem; including a victim who isn't a victim...

[DarkPassenger]

I also think that he either died or went totally loony after Kelly. For this type of freak to contain himself seems utterly impossible. He doesn't seem to have the control of a BTK type.

He lured them, throttled them into submission, slashed their throats in one or two swipes, both silencing and killing them, before quite efficiently mutilating them, obviously for a purpose, arguably, to remove the uterus for whatever reason.

He may be crazy in a moral sense but he's not likely to have been "mad." He even took the chance to kill indoors when he had the chance. Seems interesting, on a sidenote, that two murder sites were yards from Spitalfields Market.