Tabram and Kelly?

[Ben]

Excellent post there, Brenda.

I'd say you've got three killers at most out of that lot, and there's no evidence that the torso killer did the actual "killing" in the East End anyway. There seems to be this "If in doubt, rule 'em out" mentality taking root, whereas experience should have taught us that the opposite approach is the safer option. Most captured serial killers have been responsible for more victims than investigators previously considered prior to capture, rarely less.

Best regards,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

To tell you truth, Glenn, I have no problem linking Smith, and Hames to the Ripper. He could very well have been in the gang. The pack instinct propelled him, then he struck out on his own. And him being the alpha male, the other gang members were too afraid to rat on him.

I'm thinking Canon 7 plus Hames, Milwood and maybe Wilson, too.

Roy

Hi Roy,

No I don't agree with that at all.
And that is for several reasons:
a) we must consider the nature of the area: poor inhabitants, serious social problems and a large numner of prostitutes, which in turn tends to attracts crime.
b) what has been said before, namely that crime history reveals both before and after the Whitechapel murders that extreme crimes were happening in London and even in East End. It is nonsense to try to pin every murder or attack on the Ripper when the area was highly strucken by poverty and crime. I've said it before and I'll say it again: considering the nature of the area I am astounded over the fact thast MORE stuff like this didn't happen.

And no, I can't see him as a gang member.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Most captured serial killers have been responsible for more victims than investigators previously considered prior to capture, rarely less.

And of course the opposite type of 'link blindage' also exists.

Like Vernon J Geberth says in his crime manual Practical Homicide Investigation and in several artcles for Law and Order magazine: several extreme crimes involving excessive mutilation (especially in a domestic environment), often in the beginning are expected to be the works of an unknown sexual predator but in the last majority of cases they in the end turns out to be perpetrated by someone close to the victim. And these types of cimes are especially hard to investigate if they happen in the context of an active serial killer on the loose.

It seems to be in fashion these days to attribute more crimes to a serial killer than what is necessary and that is just as much a misleading mistake as to do the opposite.
In Sweden we recently unveiled and captured a serial killer and he was immedately suspected of other similar crimes. However, DNA evidence has ruled him out from some of those while others still are being investigated.

'Link blindage' can appear both ways.

Le's remember that the enviroment in Est End and the large number of prostitutes would expect to attract a large number of crimes of extreme nature since prostitutes tend to draw many abnormal characters to themselves. Not to mention when licker gets into the picture.
In such a context the attacks on Tabram and Emma Smith shouldn't really come as a surprise. To add all of those to the Ripper is a questionable approach indeed and somewhat of a cliché. I think several crimes in the area at the time indicates that he most certainly was not alone.

All the best

[RonnieKray]

Oh, one more thing - Hi Ronnie Kray. I like saying that.

Roy

Hello back to you Roy!


I think the Mary Kelly murder is indicitive with a serial killer that just wanted time and space to murder in peace and in private. We have to remember that perhaps by that time it would be virtually impossible to murder in the immediate surrounding district with just about everyone suspicious of each other...paticularly a lone male.

I think that at least one of the suspects in the Kelly murder has a reasonable allibi in that barnett played cards and went to bed after midnight. There are no reports that he left or returned during the night or that he was bloodstained as the killer was most likley to have been. Also the police seemed to be happy with his account.

As for the other man in her life there is no eveidence oh him actually being Jack or having such ferocious jealousy to inflict such grusomeness.

It appears to me that Jack was working himself up to do what he most wanted to do.....enjoy making such a terrible gory mess and spend some time doing it.

George Hutchinson's account...overhearing Kelly saying something to the effect that he will be comfortable rings very true.

As for Tabram....I don't see any significant difference in her murder than the others to discount her.

And Stride....is it possible that two killers had the same idea to kill on the very same night.... a relative short distance away? It sounds very unlikley and I think that a lot of details involving Riper murders are often dismissed or interpreted in the most amusing ways.

I personally don't have a view who killed any of the women but I think that he certainly killed the five canons and possibly Tabram too.

The Yorkshire Ripper is a prime example that serial killers do alter the way they kill....using different methods and do not follow the patterns we somehow try to see them as.

[perrymason]

Well...lets see what the murder victims Tabram and Kelly shared with the other Canonicals in short form...based on the accepted evidence, including witnesses and medical officials:

Assumed picked up by the killer while soliciting-Martha
Attacked and subdued without knife use-neither
Throats cut while laying on the ground-neither
Abdomens cut open-Mary
Abdominal organs extracted and taken-neither

So....so far we have only the mere cutting of Marys abdomen, and the pick-up of Martha as even having some similarity to Ripper kills,... by the methodology, signatures and behaviors seen in just three murders within the "Canon". Yet one of the above...the victim that has only a single attack/subdue/mutilate trait she shares with priors....is considered a Ripper victim. And one victim within the Canon not mentioned here, shares none of those traits or actions.

I would think a vivid imagination is a huge asset in some professions,... but there is one profession that comes to mind where imagination alone, without having proof attached,... is useless problem solving.... Police work. They have to prove what they claim. Because people are punished by their accusation and presentation of proof of a crime.

Its no wonder then that the Canonical Group as is merely an opinion....not an official position. Because all 5 of those murders...with 3 very similar ones inside it....are just as unsolved as they were 120 years ago....just like the 7 or 8 non-canonical unfortunates.

Its good to remember that "Jack" is a pen-name on a probable hoax letter...not a known individual person.

Best regards

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Michael/Perry,

You speak the words of wisdom as usual. I could kiss you (erhh... scrap that - but you get my drift...).
Not much to add after than one.

All the best

[Ben]

George Hutchinson's account...overhearing Kelly saying something to the effect that he will be comfortable rings very true.

Not from that distance and in those conditions it didn't, Ronnie!

'Link blindage' can appear both ways.

Absolutely, Glenn.

I only meant that, in the apparent majority of serial cases, investigators have underestimated the kill-tally, rather than overestimated it, most often as a result of fine-tuning a pattern too much. Obviously that doesn't we should attribute every murder in the district to the ripper, but on the other hand, it provides us with a caution against ruling out too many victims, because the more victims we exclude, the more ferocious killers we end up "creating" to the point of implausibility.

Best regards,
Ben

[RonnieKray]

I would agree with you Ben....according to some people who rule out this and that murder will have us looking for several derranged killers in a very small area that make it implausible. My point exactly. I see there being only one killer of the canon 5 and Tabram.

[perrymason]

Michael/Perry,

You speak the words of wisdom as usual. I could kiss you (erhh... scrap that - but you get my drift...).
Not much to add after than one.

All the best

Ill take that as a "manly" pat on the back Glenn...with my thanks.

Cheers my friend.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

OK, although some of this has been discussed many times, now we are getting somewhere and I am glad to se that this thread wasn't "killed"!

I think the Mary Kelly murder is indicitive with a serial killer that just wanted time and space to murder in peace and in private..

The problem is, that the Kelly murder is actually more indictive with what an extreme domestic homicide looks like - with its personal emotional implications - rather than with the works of serial killers. I have never for one moment believed that the nature of the Kelly murder was a result of more time and being committed indoors - that is unfortunately a myth that has been allowed to continue to spread.
There are many indications on the crime scene that the murderer was less efficient than in the Ripper killings, andn that he allowed the victim to fight back. The crux is, that even though the event happened indoors and he didn't have to worry about patrolling PC:s he wouldn't be able to afford to let the victim resist or cry out and therefore there would be no reason for him to change hisn appoach and abandon his "blitz attack" technique. If someone would be drawn to the scene because the victim casued a lot of noise and trouble he would actually be quite trapped and have nowhere to run.

I think that at least one of the suspects in the Kelly murder has a reasonable allibi in that barnett played cards and went to bed after midnight. There are no reports that he left or returned during the night or that he was bloodstained as the killer was most likley to have been. Also the police seemed to be happy with his account.

It's true that Barnett did provide an alibi but since we have no detailed information about this we shouldn't accept it first hand without a critical view. Besides, alibies can be falsified.
That said, Barnett is not my prime suspect.

As for the other man in her life there is no eveidence oh him actually being Jack or having such ferocious jealousy to inflict such grusomeness.

No, there are no evidence of him being Jack, but there are several indications of that he might have been her killer. A quick look at what the witness testimonies from a couple of Kelly's aquaintaces is enough to suspect him. And if he was the same man as the character "John Evans" (which much evidence suggests) and who went into an asylum some years after the murder and displaying abusive and aggressive, paranouid traits, then he most certainly had the mental disposition for committing such a crime. I have seen more normal people than him being guilty of far more hiddeous mutilation murders.

George Hutchinson's account...overhearing Kelly saying something to the effect that he will be comfortable rings very true.

No it doesn't. In fact, it's a complete fairytale from beginning to end (and I think Ben will be with me on this), since not much in his testimony actually hangs together with reason. Furthermore, by studying the tabloids at the time it is quite evident that the character "Astrakhan" he presents to the press and police isnothing but a mere construction created from characters appearing in the press relating to the previous crimes, and containing elements and features from those such as red neckerchief (Lawende) and the newspaper parcel (the man seen by PC Smith in connection with the Stride murder). If anything, Hucthinson reveals himself as a frequent reader of the papers.

Again - there can never be any canon in a 120 year old murder case where the killer is unidentified. A canon means 'generally accepted victims', and those used to be five but today they have been subjected to criticised studium to such an extent that they can no longer be given that priviligue.
personally, I believe we can only be absolutely sure of three, while the others have to remain open to question and debate. But I would never take the word 'canon' into my mouth.

All the best

[Ben]

Hi Ronnie,

As for the other man in her life there is no eveidence oh him actually being Jack

Although what evidence does exist is probably much stronger than the cases against any other identified suspect named to date.

As you were, chaps...

[Grabbit]

On the bright side, at least we don't have to worry about him striking again while we're trying to work out just who were and were not victims!

[RonnieKray]

I think perhaps even if finger prints, DNA, a perfect idenikit, good witnesses, a plethora of evidence and CCTV footage existed of the Ripper murders some people here would dispute the findings. What it is to be human I suppose!

[The Grave Maurice]

I'm just waiting until a couple of people decide that Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes don't fit the JtR pattern either. Then we can officially close down this website.

[Chava]

I'm just waiting until a couple of people decide that Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes don't fit the JtR pattern either. Then we can officially close down this website.

Pattern? Wot bleedin' pattern? There is no bleedin' pattern. Tabram wasn't a victim. Stride wasn't a victim. Kelly wasn't a victim. Jus' leaves Chapman an' Eddowes. 2 kills don' make a serial killer!!

(Actually I'm not all that sure that Kelly was a victim. But I'm certain of Nicholls, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes. And I am relatively convinced about Tabram...)