Why is Liz Stride's Murder So Contentious?

[Malcolm X]

bloody hell........this isn't JTR is it, not a hope in hell .... that open window and the whole feel of the location.......this is intended as a quick kill only, sorry, this isn't a place to even attempt a mutilation at all.

it's somebody from the club, but Christ knows why he wanted to kill her........ this is driving me crazy, none of this is making sense, why should someone she was intending to meet in that club ( breath fresheners) wanting to kill her! ..someone else can sort this out, it's time for a drink and a cigarette!

[Malcolm X]

but did BS come back?

well many do in those cctv police videos, you often see drunks walking off and then comming back again throwing punches, or comming back to argue with the police, or never walking off, drunks like this are a real pain in the a***..........they end up getting arrested dont they!

this post is quite important, drunks tend to hang around dont they, they're feeling aggressive and arguementative.......but BS would've had to have been quiet as i've described.

mind you, BS might not have been that drunk, this wasn't a proper street fight was it, just a mild scuffle. yes it's very complicated indeed

my guess is the killer could indeed be BS, but because Liz wasn't seen between 12.45/12.40 and 1am, that she was probably waiting quietly inside Dutfields and the killer came from the club.............who knows!

[perrymason]

Liz Stride wasnt in a fight based on Schwartz's story, a man grabbed her, she likely resisted and fell. She was not pushed, shoved, pulled off her feet....and the man is seen helping her up in Schwartz story. All she need be is "ruffled". A little dirt to brush from the skirt, a moment to gather herself....maybe even a minute to freshen her mouth as she was startled and maybe has a dry mouth now. BSM could have left....or he could have escorted her into the yard with the premise that she could collect herself out of the street.

Key points.....She is said by a lodgemate to be wearing her good evening wear, she declines to pay for her bed even though she was paid 6d for cleaning rooms, leaves a swatch of fabric with her lodgemate and says "I dont know when I shall return"....she goes out and somewhere acquires a flower for her jacket, and perhaps some cashous for her "freshness". She is seen in the immediate area of the club, with witness testimony that says the yard was empty, and 28 or so men were upstairs singing. She is not known to have secured a client, nor to be seeking one. No-one comes forward to say she propositioned them anyway. The only contact she seems to have with anyone is to be grabbed by Broadshouldered Man, as per Schwartz. It appears she resisted his advances in that instance.

It would seem that Liz Stride is waiting for someone that is in the club at 12:45am, but expected out soon...as she is now by the gates as per Schwartz. If the altercation happened as stated, she is with BSM or he is just leaving...the yard is empty. No-one on the street. Its 12:46am.....and according to Dr Blackwell, from that minute until approx 12:56am is the most likely time of her cut.

The only place we wouldnt see a man approach her from with Fanny or any other witness, is if he does so from the yard. Since we had Eagle in that yard 6 minutes before, and Liz outside it for a few minutes, and the yard was empty.....Jacky didnt get in the yard when BSM leaves....if he leaves.

Best regards.

[Malcolm X]

i would say that Liz was almost definitely at Dutfields to meet a new man in her life, or somebody she fancied... but not prostituting, i would say that this was fairly obvious.

it also tells you that she would've been hanging around the yard entrance or inside all the time, but not strolling off down the street and around the corner; because she would've missed him. this is backed up by the evidence that states that she wasn't seen after 12.45

but why would a new lover, or someone she fancied walk out of a busy club, murder her and then return inside, or even want to murder her, what is his motive?........this makes no sense at all.

this is totally the wrong location to mutilate a victim, so i doubt that it's the Ripper and it's very hard to vision a club member killing her... no motive that we know of!...................it looks like BS killed her, or Pipeman

[perrymason]

But why would a new lover, or someone she fancied walk out of a busy club, murder her and then return inside, or even want to murder her, what is his motive?........this makes no sense at all.

Who says the "date" killed her? Heres a guess for the date....Eagle.

His story is that he returns to the club at 12:40am after dropping a lady off at home, finds the Berner door locked, and enters the yard to get to the side door. He doesnt see anyone by the gates, nor in the yard...not even Lave, who by his statement, was there.

When he hears of the murder by the gates upstairs, he "tumbles pell-mell" down the stairs to see the horrific sight. He tells us that he didnt look closely as he was afraid of the sight of blood.

Then why did he rush down to see? Why did he come back after dropping his lady off? Its almost 1 and the meeting ended at around 11:00pm. Where was Liz if not near the gates when he arrives?

Was the yard empty? Was Liz already in it when he arrived back and he told her he'd be a few minutes...and he leaves her there in the yard with what neighbors suggest from other meeting nights, were "low men" in the yard often until past 1am?

A "low man" could easily have killed Liz for any number of reasons,..its a single stroke and perhaps while she fell.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

yes that's quite a good theory Mike........Stride was killed while her new ``man friend`` had shot upstairs for a few minutes.....it's not watertight but it's not bad.

because being killed by a member of that club who is already inside, makes no sense at all; because he could be seen going downstairs and or, returning too.

[caz]

i would say that Liz was almost definitely at Dutfields to meet a new man in her life, or somebody she fancied... but not prostituting, i would say that this was fairly obvious.

it also tells you that she would've been hanging around the yard entrance or inside all the time, but not strolling off down the street and around the corner; because she would've missed him. this is backed up by the evidence that states that she wasn't seen after 12.45

but why would a new lover, or someone she fancied walk out of a busy club, murder her and then return inside, or even want to murder her, what is his motive?........this makes no sense at all.

this is totally the wrong location to mutilate a victim, so i doubt that it's the Ripper and it's very hard to vision a club member killing her... no motive that we know of!...................it looks like BS killed her, or Pipeman

I give up.

An unaccompanied known prostitute is seen hanging around the entrance to a busy club on a Saturday night after midnight, when a passer-by is seen to manhandle her, appearing to want her to move away from said entrance. And it's supposed to be 'fairly obvious' that she wasn't prostituting herself at all but was left waiting outside in the darkness, to be manhandled by every passing drunk and ruffian, by a remarkably inattentive and ungentlemanly new man in her life?

Your'e damned right this makes no sense at all. Men don't tend to murder new women in their lives out of indifference.

Nor do men tend to get away with attacking women known to them personally, in risky public locations, after being seen by witnesses, then running off without knowing if a single cut will do the trick and stop the victim from identifying her killer.

Once again, if it's totally the wrong location to mutilate a victim, so what? Jack didn't attempt to mutilate at this location, and I doubt he intended to mutilate any of his victims at the point of encounter, whether it was on a main road or anywhere equally unsuitable for ripping activity.

Which leaves a variety of plausible scenarios by which Jack could have cut this one and run without breaking the rules of common sense.

Just one could be that he had seen Liz earlier and she rebuffed his advances, telling him she wasn't working/wasn't that sort of woman/was meeting her fella later. He could have followed her to the club, or seen her there in passing, and assumed she had not only lied to him, but had turned him down to go looking for Jewish custom. Not hard to see how a bigoted egomaniac could have seen red and used his freshly sharpened knife to teach her a short sharp lesson.

Is Jack not allowed to use his knife unless the intention to mutilate is there and the conditions are favourable? Where is this rule written and how was Jack forced to comply with it?

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

I don't see how BS could have killed her. What about the cachous?

[perrymason]

I don't see how BS could have killed her. What about the cachous?

If this was the BSM of Schwarz's story Robert, I can see it working like this, in the yard....

Eagle arrives at 12:40 and finds Liz inside the gates but not deeply in the dark yard. He tells her he'll be right out, and goes in the side door. A thug type, a BSM, one of a few people smoking and hanging about, sees the interaction with Eagle and thinks he just arranged a "trick" with her. He goes over and gets into a "negotiation" with her for his own good time and she demurs, perhaps rudely. She is wearing her nice clothes and had a flower on her breast, and she was there for a date, not work. Tonight men should treat her as a lady on a date....unbeknown to them. Schwartz leaves via the side door and sees the altercation and the woman fall...he scoots out of the gates followed by a man smoking a pipe in the yard. BSM helps her up, she smooths down her skirt, curses the man....He is drunk and surly and is getting madder by the minute having this whore mouth off to him....she takes her cashous out of her pocket to get some moisture and freshness in her mouth after having it dry out when frightened by the thug, and as she decides its safer to wait outside the gates in some light, she turns her back to him with a last insult, Goldstein walks by, BSM grabs her scarf, pulls her off balance choking her, twists the scarf in his hand, and with the other runs a big blade across her throat, and drops her. Maybe 2 seconds real time.

If it started outside the club yard as Schwartz said, BSM takes her in there after the altercation at 12:45am.

He is drunk and stupified at what he just did, is hussled into the club to wipe his hands and when Diemshutz arrives, he and Goldstein get some outside witnesses into the scene, and start the damage control. When they have people stirring at the gates, BSM is let out the front door, and heads away from the club.

I knows its fictional, but it would fit the "knowns".

Best regards Robert.

[perrymason]

I was just thinking that since Schwartz'z story was on record early, and Browns is the one they choose, ....that scenario would work with Brown as well, inside the yard. Even with both witnessed men, Browns and Schwartz's....Browns man goes into the yard with Liz around 12:40-45, and he becomes the BSM that Schwartz sees when leaving via the yard.

Best regards

[caz]

Hi Perry,

But isn't your scenario vastly more complicated than it needs to be?

He is drunk and surly and is getting madder by the minute having this whore mouth off to him...

And yet this man is meant to have pulled off an almost perfect murder, with a single throat cut, on presumably the first and only occasion he has been drunk and surly enough to kill a 'whore' who has supplied his 'motive' by maddening him beyond breaking point with a 'last insult' when she turns her back on him.

An active serial killer would have needed far less excuse to tackle even the most mildly annoying female in his path, with one swift sweep of the knife that he kept sharp for the purpose of inflicting damage on women for no discernible motive. Whatever motivation he needed was already in his head when he set out that night. No need to supply one in his case. But every need in the case of anyone else, and poor Liz has to help you supply it, by making a man mad enough to kill.

She'd be better off with Jack...

Love,

Caz
X

[perrymason]

At least that premise was promoted as fiction Caz....more than I can say for many suppositions bantied about.

The perfect murder? He grabs a woman from behind with her scarf and slides his knife across her throat while dropping her, and we have a "perfect" murder? It was amateur night in Dutfields Yard if anything. And who says BSM or the killer hadnt cut other whores when he was angry with them...if he was with Liz. If he had done, seems he learned little to improve his technique.

I would heartily disagree with you that the fictional portrayal of events is complicated...in fact Ill go so far as to say if Liz antagonized a drunk thug in any way, even with rejection, I am not surprised he physically abused her in some way, even to the extent of killing her.

She may have been accosted by a drunk within minutes of single throat cut that kills her.

Best regards