Days of the week murders occured?

[Supe]

Christine,

As the five canonicals were all Friday night, Saturday night, or very early Sunday

Actually, Polly and Mary were murdered early on a Friday morning. That said, though, I agree with your observations about a small sample and that we have no information on failed attempts.

Don.

[perrymason]

It appears someone misread my post, I never said murders werent committed on weekdays or Mondays specifically, just that the weekdays were on either end of the weekend and that they were Holidays. It would seem, again, that the days are the ones associated with work stoppage...this also applies to some non-canonical deaths.

Although many local residents worked 6 and 7 day weeks, not all did, and there were Monday to Friday type jobs locally. "Clerk-like" hours if you prefer. Aside from the issue that we don't even know if he was a local, its possible he had weekends and holidays off.

If the killer had a Monday to Friday job, thats all the explanation that is needed for the days of the week he kills,....for the days of the month he kills we still would need to explain why no kills from the 9th of any month a Canonical is killed in until the last or second last day that month. Although the "series" is short lived, it records deaths in Aug, Sept, and November, all following the same day of the week/of the month "pattern"....with the last 10 day window involving just one kill.

Since there is no deviation from that "pattern" with the Canonical 5, it may be significant. At least I am not dismissing its potential relevance at this point.

Best regards all

[amarti9]

perrymason, are you referring to the "39 theory" pattern?

Perhaps this could mean that he had a certain schedule. An example would be like a seaman or some type of sailor who was out to sea and came back on certain weekends or days for leave.

[Supe]

The problem with much of this kind of thinking is not only seeing patterns that may not exist, but seeing patterns only through a modern prism. Life in the LVP, especially in places like the East End, was not arranged around a neat "9-5, M-F, and two weeks of paid holiday in Ibizia" existence. They worked long hours as often as they could just to survive and for many others there was nothing to do all day or all night but scrounge and beg and steal.

Simply consider how many of the victims were discovered (or just seen) by those going to or coming from work at times that few of us today are even up and about. There may well be a temporal rhythm to the murders, but I stongly doubt that a 21st century template will help reveal them.

Oh, and I repeat--Polly and Mary Jane were killed early on a Friday morning, not evening.

Don.

[Chris]

Life in the LVP, especially in places like the East End, was not arranged around a neat "9-5, M-F, and two weeks of paid holiday in Ibizia" existence. They worked long hours as often as they could just to survive and for many others there was nothing to do all day or all night but scrounge and beg and steal.

In particular, I think Saturday would still have been a working day for much of the Gentile population in 1888.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
just a hunch , I would suspect the killer worked at spitalfields market, and he drank a lot, indeed i would suspect that all the murders were committed whilst under the influenze of drink.
Tabram. attacked shortly after the closing of the public houses.
Nichols -accosted by someone who may have made a grap for her in Brady steet, and the possibility that she temporary escaped the killers clutches might indicate alcohol.
Chapman-according to a report she was seen with a strange man in a nearby pub around 5am.
Stride/Eddowes - murders occured around the closing of the public houses.
Mary Kelly- seen talking to a market porter outside 'The Britannica' at 845am.
Pam Ball whose pyschic investigation also indicated the presense of drink during the murder of kelly.
Pure speculation stuff, but if one adds broadshoulders apparent swagger as in 'Intoxication', and the last person allegedly with Mjk ie. market porter, and that sighting outside a public house, it is not such an unlikely scenerio.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Although many local residents worked 6 and 7 day weeks, not all did, and there were Monday to Friday type jobs locally. "Clerk-like" hours if you prefer.

Not sure those work hours would be "clerk-like" specifically, Mike. Certainly no more so than they'd be baker-like, tailor-like or labourer-like.

All the best,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
The killers occupation is unlikely in my opinion to be clerical, it is of my opinion that he would have had some work that blood stained garments would not be suspicous, the wearing of a apron is likely.
The killer of these women , would have received heavy bloodstains and some protection garment would have been absolutely vital, as in someones work apron would suffice.
So why remove a large portion of Eddowes apron?
Answer a possible red herring, he cut off her apron to give the police the impression that he needed material to cleanse himself en route, when the truth is he proberly had the apron on ample cloth on his person.
These murders were more premeditated then people realized, at least in the percautions he took, like in the wearing of a possible work apron, and the carrying of a knife used for his work?
Remember blood was then just blood , human/animal could not be detected, but if he had some work at spitalfields market that involved the slaughter of animals, then he would have had more chance of getting away from the scene then someone of clerical appearnce would have had, and if he also had a place to quickly return to, such as his place of work, then he would not have been too long on the streets, and therefore open to being apprehended.
This post is a bit of a ramble, but you proberly get the jist.,
Regards Richard.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

I used the term "clerk-like" only because a suspect was typed with that description by a witness, but the point was I realize that that in East End London the majority of workers were engaged in labour related occupations....docker, shippers/receivers, butcher, tailor, warehouseman, slaughterhouseman, manufacturing, .....and some were street traders and marketpeople. Some begged or pawned owned or stolen goods.

And some, worked in offices.

On weekends, or holidays attached to weekends, the Canonical 5 were murdered.They occurred over a span of more than 3 months, and in that time, no attempted assaults on women by men with knives that took place over that period were linked by the police to the Ripper investigation. Meaning, they did not openly suggest they felt that any of those attacks were foiled or misfired Ripper ones.

It remains possible that Jack never made misfires and that weekends or holidays allowed him freedom he did not have on the weeknights. That suggests to me that its possible his killing schedule was perhaps related to his availability. That would be one answer for the question why he doesnt ever kill in London's East End from the 10th to the 2nd last day of each month. Maybe he couldnt.

Best regards.

[amarti9]

Hi again,

I used the term "clerk-like" only because a suspect was typed with that description by a witness, but the point was I realize that that in East End London the majority of workers were engaged in labour related occupations....docker, shippers/receivers, butcher, tailor, warehouseman, slaughterhouseman, manufacturing, .....and some were street traders and marketpeople. Some begged or pawned owned or stolen goods.

And some, worked in offices.

On weekends, or holidays attached to weekends, the Canonical 5 were murdered.They occurred over a span of more than 3 months, and in that time, no attempted assaults on women by men with knives that took place over that period were linked by the police to the Ripper investigation. Meaning, they did not openly suggest they felt that any of those attacks were foiled or misfired Ripper ones.

It remains possible that Jack never made misfires and that weekends or holidays allowed him freedom he did not have on the weeknights. That suggests to me that its possible his killing schedule was perhaps related to his availability. That would be one answer for the question why he doesnt ever kill in London's East End from the 10th to the 2nd last day of each month. Maybe he couldnt.

Best regards.

PerryMason you're singing my song. That has been my thought about Jack and his "schedule or cycle" of killings since I found out about when the murders took place.

I for one believe that JTR did have a "scheduling" issue that restricted him to the weekends. These "misfires" are a toss-up to me. The way JTR moved and killed as well as escaping the police time and time again would suggest that this is someone who is going to hit a homerun everytime he/she came to bat.

The last two or three sentences in the "Dear Boss" letter(Assuming it is genuine) seem to suggest or acknowledge that Jack may be restricted in when he has opportunity to kill.

Then again Im only speculating. I defer to experts on this one but that is my initial feeling on this particular issue.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

It remains possible that Jack never made misfires.

Consider the Chapman and Eddowes murders, though. Chapman had apparently been up and about all night, and it's almost inconceivable that Jack would have chosen to head out after 5 AM in search of a victim - unless you buy into the "reckless daring" model. Isn't it just as likely - if not more so - that he'd been scouting around for a few hours with no luck at all, until Chapman came along at the last minute? The situation with Eddowes is slightly different, but again may point at a Ripper who struck lucky. She gets released from the cells barely half an hour before she meets her killer - if she hadn't, then perhaps there'd only have been a "Single Event" on that night (and Stride firmly consigned to the "maybe" list as a result).

Even with Nichols, it's arguable that there were a number of hours of darkness that had passed whilst the streets were relatively deserted, during which time Jack tried, but had no luck. Again, if Polly hadn't been cast out onto the streets that night, we might not have had a "Canonical 5" at all.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,Consider the Chapman and Eddowes murders, though. Chapman had apparently been up and about all night, and it's almost inconceivable that Jack would have chosen to head out after 5 AM in search of a victim - unless you buy into the "reckless daring" model. Isn't it just as likely - if not more so - that he'd been scouting around for a few hours with no luck at all, until Chapman came along at the last minute? The situation with Eddowes is slightly different, but again may point at a Ripper who struck lucky. She gets released from the cells barely half an hour before she meets her killer - if she hadn't, then perhaps there'd only have been a "Single Event" on that night (and Stride firmly consigned to the "maybe" list as a result).

Even with Nichols, it's arguable that there were a number of hours of darkness that had passed whilst the streets were relatively deserted, during which time Jack tried, but had no luck. Again, if Polly hadn't been cast out onto the streets that night, we might not have had a "Canonical 5" at all.

Hi Gareth,

I have no problems with the above at all, but that doesnt translate to a statement that he likely went out other nights during the week and gave up when no prime opportunity presented themselves, or that each of those nights he wandered until an opportunity arose. To me, the fact that he "acquires" Annie so late is perhaps tied to the notion that he was so desperate to have a victim on that night that he searched until almost daylight to find one. Kates murder can only be one based on the convenience of her strolling past at that hour if she was picked at random...she was in jail for 4 hours and unless someone knew she would be released when sober enough, and where she would go, her killer may have just happened to be where she comes by and he could have just come out that night himself.

The time frame of any Canonical murder is between midnight and 6am...but I dont agree that means he was out all that time each kill night..or night in general.

Whether he stakes out an area is unclear, whether he floats about the East End looking for any potential target is unclear, or whether he specifically searches for any of his victims is unclear.

What is clear is that he only kills his victims after midnight and before 6am on weekends or holidays attached to them.

I dont use "chance" too much to try and explain some of these issues away, in that it was merely chance that the murders fell on those days in particular, that by some unlucky happenstance he was unable to ever find a midweek victim that fit his liking, or that the chances are the kill "pattern" as such has no meaning.

He very well may have only gone out to kill and actually killed on the days he was able to do so.

Cheers Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

What is clear is that he only kills his victims after midnight and before 6am on weekends or holidays attached to them.

Actually, Mike, what is clear is that he only succeeded in killing victims after midnight... (etc). That's not the same as saying that he only set out to kill at those times. I rather believe that he didn't - simply because the "chances" of the conditions being right for a kill would have varied. It therefore follows that he may well have been out and about for quite some time before an opportunity came his way.

I dont use "chance" too much to try and explain some of these issues away, in that it was merely chance that the murders fell on those days in particular, that by some unlucky happenstance he was unable to ever find a midweek victim that fit his liking, or that the chances are the kill "pattern" as such has no meaning.

Why not, though? Don't you think that, if he'd had the "chance", he'd only have killed on Saturdays, or between 1AM and 2AM?

Come to think of it, that might have been a tad predictable. On that basis it's quite conceivable that the "pattern" was merely a manifestation of his wanting to keep the authorities guessing, rather than having anything at all to do with his work commitments, etc.

that by some unlucky happenstance he was unable to ever find a midweek victim that fit his liking

There needn't be anything more unusual about the "happenstance" of Jack's not finding a midweek victim than there is of an angler not catching a river trout on a given day.

[perrymason]

Sam,

With all due respect what you're saying is that there was no planning involved in any of the Canonical killings, nor was the days of the week the kills occurred on signifigant to a profile of the man. That the murders occur randomly, as the opportunities arose, or that he just caught fish when they happened to be biting and we dont know of his failed attempts, as you put it....,...it was just random bad luck for the victims, and at times, the rewarding result of hours of unsatisfying searching by the killer.

All possible.

So is a schedule that prevented him from being out in the east End on the many, many weeknights.....when Ripper murders dont occur, and perhaps one that takes away his access to the area each month for some weeks.

If he doesnt kill on a given night, I would not assume that means the killer likely tried and failed. In fact, its possible he only went out on those specific nights to kill, and was successful each time.

All he needs, according to most peoples estimation, and the evidence at face value, is a prostitute on her own near a dark alley. Do you really believe he would need multiple attempts and hours of searching just to find that simple equation waiting for him? My bet is there were lots of women every night that could have met that small criteria....working alone and near dark places

All the best Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, With all due respect what you're saying is that there was no planning involved in any of the Canonical killings

What I'm actually saying, Mike, is that I believe it unlikely that there was any planning as to the specific times at which Jack killed, and that there may well have been no planning as to the actual days either.

Let's not forget that Jack was a human being, not a guided missile - so, even if he had planned, it doesn't follow that he'd have been invariably successful. I mean, an angler may have all the right techniques, and take the right flies with him to catch a trout, but he isn't guaranteed to land one every day of the week.