locals of the ten bells and other bars...

[Sam Flynn]

the landlords of these bars knew these women well...

We don't know that.

[chrismasonic]

I'm just going to disagree with you on the tens of thousands of people out there each night drinking and hanging out on the streets...you paint that picture...i say that by 3 o'clock the streets were quiet and only the randoms were out and about

We know there was many bars and we know that the woman were seen in bars on Commercial Street,Dorset Street,Brick Lane etc...

i know that area well and i've been on many a pub crawl from one bar to the next and don't see why drinkers of 1888 didn't do the same...anyone that goes to bars knows that the ones on the main streets are far more likely to be be happening...and that prostitutes would have most definatly went from bar to bar looking for trade...if your looking for people with money for a trick your not gonna go to the crappiest dive...your gonna head out to where people with money are likely to be...obvious

quoting the odds on percentages of people in a street going to bars doesn't mean anything...out of the 100 houses on my street,maybe 400 people...i could quite easily be the only resident in our local bar

but the odds on where a likely customer with money might be does effect the odds...

these woman didn't just walk around the streets "billy no mates" they had friends...they were known by people...there is nothing to say that they didn't know each other and only speculation that they might of...thats far better odds than you are offering

[Sam Flynn]

i know that area well and i've been on many a pub crawl from one bar to the next and don't see why drinkers of 1888 didn't do the same...

You might be able to enjoy to a cozy stroll around clubland with (presumably) reasonably-paid mates, and to do so in a town where folk have - on average - more than a few square feet in which to live, and pubs big enough to accommodate a hundred or so people quite comfortably. That's light-years away from the conditions in the East End in 1888, on every single dimension.

quoting the odds on percentages of people in a street going to bars doesn't mean anything

We live in a mathematical universe, and unfortunately we're stuck with it. Of course the odds mean something.

Anyway, I shan't waste any more of our time trying to explain why.

[chrismasonic]

Dorset Street was a side-street, a tributary of the better-lit (and better patronised) Commercial Street. It would have made more economic sense for a street-walker to have paraded back and forth along the latter, than to hide in the shadows of Dorset Street, Thrawl Street, White's Row (etc), waiting for custom to come to them. This is common practice among prostitutes today... or so I'm told
this sounds like what i'm saying doesn't it?
all i'm adding that the ladies might have come across each other whilst out and about...

i can't forcast how much money i might have for beer if i lived in 1888 whitechapel...but i'm sure i could walk the streets like any other...

but we're streets apart on our visions of whitechapel back then...

i wouldn't spend my money at your bookies...the odds are astronimical

[caz]

Hi Chris,

We don't have a single instance of any of the victims telling anyone "I knew one of the murdered women", let alone saying they knew more than one.

Even if a couple of them had been on nodding terms, they would still have needed to know a name, last known address or some other distinguishing detail in order to make any connection at all between the emerging information about a murder victim and a woman they had seen occasionally in a shop, a pub or just walking down the street. It's not like photos or film of the victims appeared on the six o'clock news!

Love,

Caz
X

[The English Gardener]

Then you must also assume that level of aquaintance to be with absolutely everybody who lived in the area. It's not nearly enough to make assumptions like this. They could have known each other, that's for certain. But "could" and "must have" are a long long way removed from each other. If their lives did indeed crisscross, then they also crisscrossed with thousands of others. And, as Sam has pointed out, The Ten Bells was only one of the many pubs and beer houses in the immediate area. Any directory will show how many you're looking at. You might also consult any OS map of the area- bearing in mund that only the pubs are shown. As Sam has already mentioned, Dorset Street alone had two pubs {The Blue Coat Boy and The Horn Of Plenty} and one beer house {The Britannia}. There is absolutely no evidence that any of the C5 knew each other, and the sheer weight of the odds against such intimacy mitigates against it. With no evidence to even imply aquaintance, and every reason to doubt aquaintance, I entirely fail to see why anyone would consider it even likely that any 2 of the 5 women we are talking about here knew each other. The odds are stacked hugely against it. And the odds against all 5 knowing each other are, correspondingly, vanishingly small.

[Monty]

Whilst the evidence is non exsistant that the C5 (I hate that term but cant think of another that would suffice), the probabilty that they were at least aware of each other, if only by sight, are quite high.

This based on the locations of lodging houses, murder sites, pubs, eatries etc.

Monty

[The English Gardener]

Whilst the evidence is non exsistant that the C5 (I hate that term but cant think of another that would suffice), the probabilty that they were at least aware of each other, if only by sight, are quite high.

This based on the locations of lodging houses, murder sites, pubs, eatries etc.

Monty

Why? There are only about 300 people in the village I live in. I'm certainly not aware of all of them, even "by site". Dorset Street alone had 2 and a half that many people living in it.You're not, I'm sure, prepared to claim that it's highly probable that MJK knew {at least "by sight"} all 800 of them? Lodging houses were numerous and densely populated, as were the pubs and beer houses.
I repeat;
There is no more evidence that the C5 knew each other than there is that the C5 knew everyone living in the area.

[Monty]

English,

Yes, I stated 'by sight'.

I never said they knew everyone.

I know most, by sight, living in my street. I know most, by sight, in my local pub. I know most, by sight, in the building I work in.

Seeing as, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly resided in the same streets at some point, reportedly drank in the same pubs, I still stand that the probabilty that they knew each other (though not all at the same time) by sight is high.

There is nothing to state they did, agreed, however the locale cannot dismiss it out of hand either.

Monty

[The English Gardener]

English,

Yes, I stated 'by sight'.

I never said they knew everyone.

I know most, by sight, living in my street. I know most, by sight, in my local pub. I know most, by sight, in the building I work in.

Seeing as, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly resided in the same streets at some point, reportedly drank in the same pubs, I still stand that the probabilty that they knew each other (though not all at the same time) by sight is high.

There is nothing to state they did, agreed, however the locale cannot dismiss it out of hand either.

Monty

But there's nothing... nothing to suggest that. All the points you make about why they might know each other could be equally applied to anyone else living in the area. If you're going to claim that it's likely that the five women in question knew each other then it follows, logically, that it's just as likely that they knew everyone else. And the actuality is that it's more- much more- likely that they didn't know each other at all.

[Steve S]

Different levels of 'know'......
There's know the face.....
Know to nod to.......
up to friends...........
Wouldn't be surprised if the lower end of the scale applied.........
Steve

[The English Gardener]

Different levels of 'know'......
There's know the face.....
Know to nod to.......
up to friends...........
Wouldn't be surprised if the lower end of the scale applied.........
Steve

Again, that would equally apply to everyone else in this hugley populated area.
Even at the lower end of the scale simply living on the same street as 800 other people sure adds up to an awful lot of nodding. I'm a long way off convinced. Statistically speaking the odds are so heavily stacked against any kind of aquaintance that- if it were anyone else under discussion- the assumption would automatically be "not aquainted". Why would they be? Living in the same area {along with god knows how many thousand others} is simply not even close to presenting likelihood.

[Steve S]

Likely?...maybe not,but my point is that even if they did vaguely recognise each other...It doesn't mean anything..completely immaterial.......
Steve

[The English Gardener]

Likely?...maybe not,but my point is that even if they did vaguely recognise each other...It doesn't mean anything..completely immaterial.......
Steve

Your point taken, sir, and conceeded.

[Monty]

But there's nothing... nothing to suggest that. All the points you make about why they might know each other could be equally applied to anyone else living in the area. If you're going to claim that it's likely that the five women in question knew each other then it follows, logically, that it's just as likely that they knew everyone else. And the actuality is that it's more- much more- likely that they didn't know each other at all.

All the points you make about why they might know each other could be equally applied to anyone else living in the area

True, and equally applicable to the four Ive named.

If you're going to claim that it's likely that the five women in question knew each other then it follows, logically, that it's just as likely that they knew everyone else. And the actuality is that it's more- much more- likely that they didn't know each other at all.

Again, I stated knew by sight, not knew casually or intimately. There is a difference.

The area is a small one. The fact that these locations of Lodgings, pubs etc, situated very close to each other, places the probability as high that they MAY have KNOWN EACH OTHER BY SIGHT. Doesn’t mean they knew them by name. A face they had seen before.

You seem to be protesting too much over, what is essentially, a slight difference in views.

Monty


PS Steve has cleared my point up.