locals of the ten bells and other bars...

[caz]

My point was more that there would be little to connect a woman known only by sight with the emerging news about a murder victim - and no reason to do so unless it was someone you saw on a pretty regular basis or at the same locations and suddenly you stopped seeing her and the description of the victim matched in more than one distinctive detail.

For instance, for Carrie Maxwell to have been sure that the woman she claimed to talk to was the one later found murdered in her room, she'd have had to know more than just the very common name Mary Kelly, or the fact that she lived in the vicinity.

If anyone from just a few doors away from me, or anyone I regularly see on the bus or in the local shops, pubs or restaurants were mentioned by name in today's paper as a missing person or murder victim, but with only a basic description or less than accurate drawing, chances are I wouldn't have the foggiest if I knew the person concerned by sight or not.

Love,

Caz
X

[The English Gardener]

You seem to be protesting too much over, what is essentially, a slight difference in views.

Monty


PS Steve has cleared my point up.

Monty-
Oh, I'm not actually protesting at all. My point was simply that it's wrong to assume aquaintance at any level. Your point that the area was {and still is} a small one is a valid one, and were the local population at the level it is now, it would be safe to assume that the C5 {and I share your dislike of that term, makes them sound like a French car collective} were aquainted. But things were different in 1888 when the streets, boarding houses, model and ordinary dwellings were absolutely stuffed with people. In such a densely packed area even your next door neighbour hardly knew you {as the Kelly case amply demonstrated}, so why would you be at all aquainted with someone who lived on the other side of Commercial Street? The aim of my remark about the likelihood of them knowing each other at all was the same as the likelihood of them knowing everyone else was, in escense, to demonstrate that that likelihood was virtually nil. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not being argumentative, neither am I point scoring. Please believe that I'm simply, in my rather wordy way, contributing. The idea that Kelly, Eddowes et al knew each other is a very comfortable and intriguing one, and it would - if true - open up a huge panorama of possibility. It's just not very likely, that's all.

[Monty]

Gardener,

The word acquainted is an incorrect one, certainly not what I am suggesting.

I agree that the population of the area was large and transient. And the fact that Kelly, Eddowes et al were relatively established compared to others only increases the chances of one being noted by the other, as there would he higher chance of recognising each other if seen more regular.

The likelihood of everyone knowing everyone is indeed nil, agreed. However the likelihood on someone knowing someone within that small area is somewhat higher than that, especially when you consider how close these locations were. For example, Crossinghams (Chapman) and Millers Court (Kelly) were virtually opposite each other. They were in the same small street at the same time. Kelly had been there since March or April, and Chapman had spent weekends there for the time running up to her death.

Basically if they came across each other then the chance that they recognised each other, by sight at least, increases.

Sure its intriguing, however we do not know they did know each other in anyway so this thread is rather moot and pointless.

Monty

[Shelley]

i would have thought to a certain extent that some of the residents transient or not would call on each other for a bit of help from time to time, you know some sort of social networking, times were very hard and a lot of people at times would be glad of help as and when they may need it. Today you find a lot of people just have a small circle of thier own friends, or they are quite distant from one another and our poverty today is not exactly in the same league as it was then. So a name or a face might stick for a bit until they moved on perhaps. people also still found thier own entertainments as well, maybe perhaps the pub and a sing song?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Shelley,

The fact remains that there were many pubs in the area, thousands of people crammed into a few streets, and we know of only two victims (Kelly and Chapman) who lived in the same road at the same time. Even those two were a generation apart, and lived at the opposite ends of a street which housed around 800 others.

[Shelley]

Sam

Hi Sam,
Fair enough Sam

[Monty]

Oooh, Gareth,

Hi Shelley,

The fact remains that there were many pubs in the area, thousands of people crammed into a few streets, and we know of only two victims (Kelly and Chapman) who lived in the same road at the same time. Even those two were a generation apart, and lived at the opposite ends of a street which housed around 800 others.

Gonna have to pull you up here Im afraid.

Whilst I agree with your statement, and Englishs point, about 1000s crammed into a few streets, the fact is Crossinghams (Chapmans temp abode) and Millers Court (Kellys) were far from opposite ends of the street, thats slightly misleading in my humblest opinion.

They were virtually situated opposite each other. And Im sure both women would have been aware of each others residence if not each other...if you follow.

Besides, Dorset street wasnt that long.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Crossinghams (Chapmans temp abode) and Millers Court (Kellys) were far from opposite ends of the street, thats slightly misleading in my humblest opinion.

They were virtually situated opposite each other.

I thought that Miller's Court was at the eastern end of Dorset Street, and #35 (where Chapman lived) was at the western end, Neil. Crossingham had a couple of properties in Dorset Street: the Crossingham's opposite Miller's Court was not the same Crossingham's as that occupied by Annie Chapman.

Besides, Dorset street wasnt that long.

True, but there'd have been quite a few hundred people occupying the space between Chapman's and Kelly's respective digs.

[Monty]

Apologies

Gareth,

I stand corrected. You are quite right. I have confused New Court with Millers. Apologies mate.

However, whilst the populous of the street was high, there was still only one small street with 3 points of access.

Ive added Robs map as reference for those who havent seen it.

Monty