Body-count inflation?

[Ally]

While it may be true that serial killers generally have a higher body count than is generally attributed to them, it does not logically follow therefore that all people fitting their victim profile belongs to them. With the absence of any abdominal mutilation to Stride, some doubt as to her inclusion must remain. Even if Jack were interrupted, knowing the times it took him to complete the other murders and mutilations, I can't possibly imagine he didn't have enough time to do a little abdominal mutilation if indeed he was Jack. Which means he didn't choose to do it. He had the time. It takes all of 2 seconds to stab someone in the stomach twice.

[Jon Guy]

I sometimes wonder whether, deep down, there might be a desire to keep Jack's body-count up at all costs, if only out of a desire to paint him as an even bigger SOB than he already was?

Hi Sam

I`m pretty sure that the most students of the W.M. case would have the same body count, give or take one or two, as by the same hand.


Although there are some who argue a case for Tabram and McKenzie, I am one, I do believe that we are all sitting comfortably with only three or four definates.

There are more people who feel the need to demystify "Jack" and his kill rate, rather than add to the tally.

[Jon Guy]

Even if Jack were interrupted, knowing the times it took him to complete the other murders and mutilations, I can't possibly imagine he didn't have enough time to do a little abdominal mutilation if indeed he was Jack. Which means he didn't choose to do it. He had the time. It takes all of 2 seconds to stab someone in the stomach twice.

Hello Ally

He may not have had the time for the mutilations, as we know he always pushed the clothing up, or would cut it away to expose the abdominal region.

[Fisherman]

"There are more people who feel the need to demystify "Jack" and his kill rate, rather than add to the tally"

...and then there´s me, subtracting one, and adding another!

The best, all!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Second off, the focus of the mutilations in the Mary Kelly case have more in common with the Eddowes and Chapman murders than the ones in Nichols case. Eddowes and Kelly both had facial mutilations. All three had organs removed. All three had organs taken. All three had their abdomens totally opened up. Nichols doesn't have any of that, and anything Nichols has Kelly also has, but moreso. You can't get much more clear cut than that.

That's absolute rubbish and extremely bad analysis.
We've been over this several times, and it's total insanity to state that Polly Nichols shouldn't be among the three just because she didn't have any organs removed. The focus on the abdominal mutilations on Nichols is exactly the same as on Chapman and Eddowes, with a clear direction towards the genital area and lower abdominal area. And then we have the severe throat cut.
The only difference is that the abdominal mutilations were not as severe as in the other two, but if Nichols was the first mutilation victim that is perfectly understandable. And that would of course also explain the lack of organs being taken. Besides that there seems to be a clear attempt to open her up even if he didn't succeed.

Your ridiculous attempt to include the facial mutilations as one of the Rippers' 'key elements' is erronous to say the least, since we don't see any of that in the case of Annie Chapman.
Now you're probably going to say that the facial mutilations is an expansion of his signature, but of course that won't do if you're not prepared to accept that there also is an expansion from Nichols to Chapman, in other words that Nichols was the first trial and error case and therefore wasn't opened up as severly as the others (unless the killer was disturbed by Cross).

Again, to base any supposition about the Ripper's key elements partly on the facial mutilations is totally ludicrous since they are not apparent on Chapman. They may be expansions, but they are certainly not key elements - those are instead the focus on the lower abdominal area and the deep throat cut.

As for Kelly, she was pretty much hacked and slaughtered all over, so to even attempt to create any Ripper key elements in there is even more ridiculous since she is pretty much a case of pick-and-chose, as practically every part of her body was mutilated by the knife. The only real element that combines her with the others was the extensive troat cut. But the mutilations as such have in fact very little in common with the other Ripper victims. Nor was the womb taken as in the case of Eddowes and Chapman.

I don't know what 'experts' you refer to, but I don't think I have read that many theories that supports your silly and rather illogical deductions.
The only thing that fills me with joy is that you actually don't work within law enforcement yourself.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

While it may be true that serial killers generally have a higher body count than is generally attributed to them, it does not logically follow therefore that all people fitting their victim profile belongs to them. With the absence of any abdominal mutilation to Stride, some doubt as to her inclusion must remain. Even if Jack were interrupted, knowing the times it took him to complete the other murders and mutilations, I can't possibly imagine he didn't have enough time to do a little abdominal mutilation if indeed he was Jack. Which means he didn't choose to do it. He had the time. It takes all of 2 seconds to stab someone in the stomach twice.

Hear, hear!
Finally some common sense on this thread.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

If a Ripper victim had her abdomen cut open and another victim had her abdomen stabbed, is it fair to rule out the second victim as a Ripper victim simply because he didn't "rip" her abdomen and instead stabbed it? The most important factor was that the abdomen was targeted. There are many serial killers who changed their style of murder from one killing to the next.

Hi Adam,
Thank you, but as Dan Norder implies, I think I may disappoint you, because in my view I feel we can only be certain of three victims to attribute to the Ripper, and I definitely rule out Tabram (one of the reasons being that she was a victim of fierce stabbing and not ripping up). There was no attempt to open her up, plus that the focus on Tabram's wounds was more scattered over the breasts, the neck and the stomach (in other words, no clear defined direction towards the genital area). Nor was her throat cut. But of course there are other reasons as well.

But I agree with you, that the Ripper's main target area was the genital area. Another one is, I feel, was the throats cut since there were so deep and severe that went beyond what was necessary for practical reasons.

All the best

[Mitch Rowe]

I can't possibly imagine he didn't have enough time to do a little abdominal mutilation if indeed he was Jack.

I can. JTR and Liz are walking into the yard. Diemschutz pulls in. Jack kills Liz and runs away.

Compared to what happened to Annie... Pollys the odd one out. We know he started the mutilations but abruptly ended. What happened? Looks to me like Jack is ready to run any time he feels like it.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Mitch,

That pretty much is depending on when one assumes that Liz Stride as murdered. It is, in fact, quite possible that she wasn't killed just prior to Diemshcutz arrival.
Although she must have been killed less than ten minutes before 1 am (due to the blood still being liquid), it's not a 'fact' that she was murdered right before 1 am. Ad if she wasn't, then there would have been plenty of time for the killer to open her up and cut her throat in an equally severe manner is in the other cases.

All the best

[Mitch Rowe]

Yes its not a fact but a possibility. Wich makes it imaginable.

[Uncle Jack]

Hi Adam,
Thank you, but as Dan Norder implies, I think I may disappoint you, because in my view I feel we can only be certain of three victims to attribute to the Ripper, and I definitely rule out Tabram (one of the reasons being that she was a victim of fierce stabbing and not ripping up). There was no attempt to open her up, plus that the focus on Tabram's wounds was more scattered over the breasts, the neck and the stomach (in other words, no clear defined direction towards the genital area). Nor was her throat cut. But of course there are other reasons as well.

But I agree with you, that the Ripper's main target area was the genital area. Another one is, I feel, was the throats cut since there were so deep and severe that went beyond what was necessary for practical reasons.

All the best

Completely understand Glenn. Just me reading your post the wrong way. Ha ha. We will probably disagree as to the number of victims that Jack murdered but there are certain things we can agree on, as you mentioned above. I've always had the view that the Ripper did intend to murder Tabram in a similar way to the later victims. I theorised that Jack first strangled Tabram, rendering her unconcious. Then, lifting her skirts, he was about to do his thing when she, unexpectantly, came around and began to panic. In a panic of his own, he just started to stab in a frenzied attack, to keep her quiet, worried her screams and cries of murder would have alerted people. Just a theory, which obviously cannot be proven, but one I have considered for a while now.

Best regards,

Adam

[Ms. Fade]

I do not believe Stride was a Ripper victim and haven't for quite a while. For me, there are just too much differences from the other 4 canons. You have the lack of strangulation, the fact that a small knife was used, the others had the throats cut twice whilst Stride was only cut once. There is then the sighting of an obvious domestic situation, making it likely that Stride was a victim of a domestic murder. Add to this the lack of mutilations, accepted by many as "Jack was interupted" when it has been suggested that he would have had time to do them. As Ally says, there are too many doubts and I think it is highly unlikely, in my opinion, that Stride was murdered by the Ripper.

I agree with you entirely. I have long thought that the 'Double Event' didn't happen and that Stride was the victim of domestic violence, I'm just not convinced she was a Ripper victim. There are far too many holes in the account of what happened that night.

As for the question asked by the thread....

It's highly possible that there were other victims, but the inflation of the body count (to the extent of possibly even inventing victims in the case of Fairy Fay) seem to me to be 'glamourising' the evil of JtR, and because we don't know how many he killed or who he was it makes it all that more mysterious. Really and truly, it doesn't matter how many or how few women he murdered - he was a murderer, pure and simple, and, as such, a sick and twisted individual, and his victims (how ever many of them there were) deserve more respect than some of the serial killer groupie/conspiracy theory types in this world give them.

Rant over!

Ms.F

[Fisherman]

Uncle Jack writes:

"I theorised that Jack first strangled Tabram, rendering her unconcious. Then, lifting her skirts, he was about to do his thing when she, unexpectantly, came around and began to panic. In a panic of his own, he just started to stab in a frenzied attack, to keep her quiet, worried her screams and cries of murder would have alerted people. "

So why did he swop weapons when piercing the chestbone, Uncle Jack? Any ideas?

The best!
Fisherman

[Uncle Jack]

Hi Fisherman.

Good question. I know it was stated that a different weapon, possibly a bayonet, was used to inflict one of the other wounds but I think, as far as I am aware, that it has now been suggested that the wound assumed to have been inflicted by the "second" weapon could have been brought on by the same weapon but appeared different due to the fleshy area where the stabbing occured. Some have speculated that the bayonet wound would have been the first wound inflicted on the body, thus giving it the different appearence. I would suggest, based on this, that two weapons were not used and that all the stabs were inflicted by a strong bladed knife. Killeen suggested that the weapon that inflicted 38 of the 39 would not have been strong enough to have broken the sternum but I think in a fit of rage, a knife or daggar could have inflicted the wound. When in a rage, and while such adrenaline is being pumped through the body, we are capable of things that would not seem possible under normal circumstances. It was also suggested by the Home Office that a bayonet wasn't used.

Best regards,

Adam

[Fisherman]

I think you are wrong, Uncle Jack.

To suggest two weapons was a bold thing to do, on behalf of Killeen. It took a lot to state this, and thus we are not dealing with small differences.

The 37 stabs could have been made by a pen-knife, was what was said, and pondering the fact that the stabs delivered by this apparently quite narrow and thin blade still reached and pierced the liver, spleen and lungs of a substantially fat woman, it is pretty obvious that this blade sunk in to depths that displayed its full width.

The stab through the sternum, though, was made by a sturdy dagger or a bayonet, and the difference will have been blatant. Remember that Killen would have gone through all possibilities to fit that stab in with the others, since it must have been very controversial and highly improbable that two blades were used. The fact that he opted for this with such certainty anyhow urges us to accept that this was the case. There is no way around that, I feel.

The best, Uncle Jack! And a good nights sleep to you - I´m off to bed, since it is getting late here in Sweden!

The best,
Fisherman