Sexual Activity / Rape...?

[Mitch Rowe]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791278.stm

This counters the idea that sane people cannot commit violent sadistic acts.

Oh..Hell..Christie does that for us. Haigh does that for us too. If thats not enough include Crippen and the theory is forever blown to pieces.

[thewastelandr]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791278.stm

This counters the idea that sane people cannot commit violent sadistic acts.

You are right, but it seems to be different with actually inflicting damage with one's own hands than by pushing a button or having some other kind of mediator. A lot of people wouldn't have qualms about dropping a bomb on an enemy city, but would have serious problems skewering women and children themselves. Flashback to Hiroshima...

I guess my thought is that I would never be able to perform the mutilations JTR did on his victims. Sure, I would kill someone if I had to, but to go to that length on the mutilations? Seems to me there has to be something off in that killer's mind.

[DarkPassenger]

You are right, but it seems to be different with actually inflicting damage with one's own hands than by pushing a button or having some other kind of mediator. A lot of people wouldn't have qualms about dropping a bomb on an enemy city, but would have serious problems skewering women and children themselves. Flashback to Hiroshima...

I guess my thought is that I would never be able to perform the mutilations JTR did on his victims. Sure, I would kill someone if I had to, but to go to that length on the mutilations? Seems to me there has to be something off in that killer's mind.

If you trained to be a butcher, maybe you would find such mutilations easier to deal with? It's all a matter of perspective.

[thewastelandr]

I suppose you are right. My opinion of humankind just dropped a little.

[KatBradshaw]

Sexual contact

Am I right in thinking that its was written that there were no signs of sexual contact?

If that is so then I have always been confused by it. The trade of these women suggest that it was more likley to find signs of 'contact'. The comment that one of the victims had earned her money but spent it on gin seems to confirm this. So how would they be able to distinguish between signs of previous contact and that of the killer??

[Chava]

I think--and have thought for ages--that the Ripper couldn't get it up and that his knife was his surrogate for a penis. Whatever satisfaction he got, I believe he got it through that knife.

However, as has been pointed out up-thread, these women were prostitutes and so would have had sexual congress as part of their night's work. So I'm not sure why no evidence of this was found. Unless it was deemed to be too old to be of any use.

[Mitch Rowe]

Am I right in thinking that its was written that there were no signs of sexual contact?

If that is so then I have always been confused by it. The trade of these women suggest that it was more likley to find signs of 'contact'. The comment that one of the victims had earned her money but spent it on gin seems to confirm this. So how would they be able to distinguish between signs of previous contact and that of the killer??

There really was no forensic ability back then. The docs made a visual exam and that was it. So we dont really know much.

However... The time constraints of these murders suggest JTR was only able to kill and perform the mutilations before hightailing it out of there.

[Barnaby]

The time constraints would not have been an issue with Mary Kelly.

[DarkPassenger]

I think--and have thought for ages--that the Ripper couldn't get it up and that his knife was his surrogate for a penis. Whatever satisfaction he got, I believe he got it through that knife.

However, as has been pointed out up-thread, these women were prostitutes and so would have had sexual congress as part of their night's work. So I'm not sure why no evidence of this was found. Unless it was deemed to be too old to be of any use.

One thing you have to remember is that he doesn't consciously replace his penis with a knife - it's all subconscious. He does not think to himself, "I'm gonna stab that bitch because my dick doesn't work," he just feels he need to violate her body with a knife. Simple. The deeper psychological reasons are hidden from him.

[Sam Flynn]

The deeper psychological reasons are hidden from him.

...would that they were permanently hidden to us as well! That 19th century cigar-sucking cocaine addict has a lot to answer for.

[caz]

Hi All,

I wonder if females who kill strangers for no apparent reason are so rare because it has something to do with the primitive hunter/gatherer instinct. As society requires fewer and fewer of its males to hunt and gather in the raw, physical sense, maybe a tiny minority of the species fails to adapt, stifle or control this powerful instinct, and it spills out in twisted and destructive ways, with variations on the same primitive theme, such as rape, pillage and territory-marking.

If there's a fine line between robbing and ripping, I can see how the male sex drive might get in on the act as a by-product, if not a conscious motivating factor.

Was Whitechapel Jack's gym, and each victim his punch bag?

Love,

Caz
X

[Christine1932]

I would have to agree. Perhaps it wasn't even sexual at all - perhaps he was just deranged. To my mind, a sane person could not have committed murders such as those attributed to him. And to a deranged individual, it would be hard to say whether his motives were or were not sexual.

What does everyone else think?

Well, I donīt believe JTR or most serial killers are psychotic, only sleazy perverts. Horror/exploitation industry is full of them, thinking crap they spew. Itīs not mental illness, they just have a cesspool in the head.

[quasar]

Some very good points here,

Christine1932,
Agree totally with your statement. Andrei Chikatilo is a quintasential example of this. He was declared sane and responsible for his actions prior to his showcaes trial.He wasnt mentally ill, just a sleezy pervert who would try anything to have a good orgasm. There was nothing special about him at all. Just a common middle-aged pervert.Q

[Barnaby]

There is a difference between mental illness and legal definitions of "insane". Most serial killers (indeed the majority of the male prison population) can be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. They may also suffer from anxiety disorders, depression, dissociative disorders, schizophrenia, etc. There could be physical or psychological problems related to sex, including the paraphilias (sadism, masochism, fetishes, etc). This isn't to say that these people don't appear "normal" on the surface. Most of them also are quite sane in the sense of knowing right from wrong. But to ignore the psychology behind their actions and just to label them as "perverted" does not get us very far in terms of understanding. Once a clear diagnosis is made, we can begin to examine the environmental and genetic factors that contribute to it. In a very real way, serial killers are not normal. Most people do not routinely kill other people. It would be wise to figure out what makes these people tick. I suspect that if you ask Jack (or similar people), you would get a very unsatisfying answer as to why he kills, such as "because it gets me off." Determining how torture and murder acquire these properties brings us closer to an explanation of their behavior.

[Barnaby]

Some very good points here,

Christine1932,
Agree totally with your statement. Andrei Chikatilo is a quintasential example of this. He was declared sane and responsible for his actions prior to his showcaes trial.He wasnt mentally ill, just a sleezy pervert who would try anything to have a good orgasm. There was nothing special about him at all. Just a common middle-aged pervert.Q

Contrary to popular belief, the VAST majority of middle-aged perverts are NOT serial killers. The VAST majority of serial killers select victims of one sex. Chikatilo is a fascinating, fairly unique case. There is plenty special about him in that sense.