Book about the Ripper Arguing Victims Were Not Prostitutes

[Madam Detective]

I seem to recall someone wrote a book at some point in the 20th century where the author argued that the victims weren't prostitutes. Does anyone know the name of this book or it's author?

[Harry D]

Can't help you, but it seems that the canonical victims are subsumed under the title of 'prostitute' because they had it in their background, as did a lot of women who were forced into turning tricks to make ends meet. The bone of contention is if the victims were soliciting on the night of their deaths. Not that it would seem to matter either way in the grand scheme of things.

[Pcdunn]

I seem to recall someone wrote a book at some point in the 20th century where the author argued that the victims weren't prostitutes. Does anyone know the name of this book or it's author?

Hello, Madam Detective, welcome to Casebook. The topic of the book you're after rings a bell with me, as I do recall something about a book looking at the victims. Let me do a little research, and I'll get back to you-- with luck, with the title and author!

[Michael W Richards]

Can't help you, but it seems that the canonical victims are subsumed under the title of 'prostitute' because they had it in their background, as did a lot of women who were forced into turning tricks to make ends meet. The bone of contention is if the victims were soliciting on the night of their deaths. Not that it would seem to matter either way in the grand scheme of things.

In reality Harry, only 2 Canonicals stated to confidants that they were soliciting on the nights they eventually died. From the source, as it were. None of the remaining Canonicals, and some of the deaths also assumed to be associated with Jack from the Unsolved Murders File, cannot be stated as soliciting on the respective nights of their deaths.

You say it really wouldn't matter either way, which in terms of Investigation, isn't accurate. Why they were where they were and why they were chosen are some essential questions to find answers for.

I contend that the reason the first 2 consecutive "Ripper" victims were chosen was because they were obviously encouraging strange men of the night streets to go somewhere dark to conclude some business. That facilitated their exposure to risk.

[c.d.]

Rather than beat this damn horse to death over and over (and still it never seems to die) why don't we simply say that all of the Canonical victims appear to have some connection to prostitution be it full time or sporadically?

The question of whether they were actively soliciting the night they were killed is somewhat moot because actively soliciting or not actively soliciting we have no way of knowing their response if approached by Jack and offered money to engage in the act of prostitution right there and then.

So if we keep those two things in mind maybe we can finally put this horse out of its misery once and for all and let it go on to meet its maker.

c.d.

[John Wheat]

It is likely that all the C5 were prostituting themselves at the time of there deaths as it would give Jack an easy chance to murder them. However there deaths were sad and needless regardless of wether they were actively prostituting or not.

[kjab3112]

Hi Madam and welcome.

To my viewpoint, prostitutes and serial killers are often associated due to risk-benefit. If one was looking for a victim, a lone woman is much easier to attack than somebody in a group or house/building. Equally a street prostitute when offered money will naturally put him or herself at risk when accepting. Of the canonical five, Polly and Annie were definitely looking for pennies for their bed, Kate likely the same. MJK was a lone woman worried about the mornings rent man visit who had been trained in the oldest profession. This leaves just Liz, a previously registered prostitute in Sweden who was out having a good time with men willing to buy her beer.

If one was a homicidal maniac, who would one go for? The intoxicated, desperate, who'll go to a dark corner for four pennies? Or the secure dowager in their servanted townhouse?

[DJA]

Doubt that any of the five were prostituting themselves at the time of their deaths.
At best,or worst,some of them may have made a bit on the side to get by during the very difficult circumstances they encountered.
Really just class snobbery and discrimination which suited the police and powers that were,as there was less sympathy for these women.
More likely to be begging.

[GUT]

Now there is naturally a difference between being a prostitute and being a working prostitute on the night they died.

There is also a difference, in my mind at least, between being a full time prostitute and resorting to prostitution when things are desperate.

What I puzzle over is the MJK's death certificate lists her occupation as .prostitute, not sure who would put that on a loved one's death certificate

[DJA]

Not all that long ago that most Drive in Movie Theaters in Australia would have legally been classified as brothels.

[GUT]

Not all that long ago that most Drive in Movie Theaters in Australia would have legally been classified as brothels.

Never paid for it, 'crept the last 35 years or so.

[Madam Detective]

Is it possible to steer this back on topic? I'm looking to see if anyone knows the title or author of this book - I didn't mean to turn this into a were they, weren't they thread. Personally, I think there are plenty of other reasons poor women would find themselves on the streets late at night, other than prostitution...like homelessness?

[ChrisGeorge]

Doubt that any of the five were prostituting themselves at the time of their deaths.
At best,or worst,some of them may have made a bit on the side to get by during the very difficult circumstances they encountered.
Really just class snobbery and discrimination which suited the police and powers that were,as there was less sympathy for these women.
More likely to be begging.

Hi Deb, your assertion that you doubt that "any of the five were prostituting themselves at the time of their deaths" seems to fly in the face of the facts.

Didn't Polly Nichols say that she was going to make her bed money for the night?

Didn't Catherine Eddowes take the man into a corner of Mitre Square -- why would she do that if she were merely begging?

[Madam Detective]

Actually, Polly Nichols just said she had moved to a lodging house which wasn't a single sex one - that could mean anything - you have to read how many times it's been altered in reporting, the words change on many occasions. She also says she made her doss money several times over - doing what? Why do we infer it was in the line of prostituting herself. She could have easily begged that money or pawned things or borrowed it. The truth is all of this stuff is circumstantial. Polly Nichols has been in workhouses for most of the time prior to coming to Whitechapel,and also in employment working for the Cowdrys. She'd barely been in Whitechapel for a month before she was murdered. Why do we assume she was a prostitute?

[ChrisGeorge]

Actually, Polly Nichols just said she had moved to a lodging house which wasn't a single sex one - that could mean anything - you have to read how many times it's been altered in reporting, the words change on many occasions. She also says she made her doss money several times over - doing what? Why do we infer it was in the line of prostituting herself. She could have easily begged that money or pawned things or borrowed it. The truth is all of this stuff is circumstantial. Polly Nichols has been in workhouses for most of the time prior to coming to Whitechapel,and also in employment working for the Cowdrys. She'd barely been in Whitechapel for a month before she was murdered. Why do we assume she was a prostitute?

Her husband William had separated from her in the early 1880's because of her drunkenness. "In 1882, William found out that his wife was living as a prostitute and discontinued support payments to her."

Nichols' husband discontinued payments for her because she was prostituting herself. Yes she did sometimes find work but she was unlikely to find gainful employment in the middle of the night. The above about Polly and her husband as well as the following details are from the Victims section here on Casebook, http://www.casebook.org/victims/polly.html

2:30 AM -- She meets Emily Holland, who was returning from watching the Shadwell Dry Dock fire, outside of a grocer's shop on the corner of Whitechapel Road and Osborn Street. Polly had come down Osborn Street. Holland describes her as "very drunk and staggered against the wall." Holland calls attention to the church clock striking 2:30. Polly tells Emily that she had had her doss money three times that day and had drunk it away. She says she will return to Flower and Dean Street where she could share a bed with a man after one more attempt to find trade. "I've had my doss money three times today and spent it." She says, "It won't be long before I'm back." The two women talk for seven or eight minutes. Polly leaves walking east down Whitechapel Road.

At the time, the services of a destitute prostitute like Polly Nichols could be had for 2 or 3 pence or a stale loaf of bread. 3 pence was the going rate as that was the price of a large glass of gin. [Emphasis mine]