How are we so certain the victims were all prostitutes?

[Madam Detective]

This has occurred to me on several occasions. Aside from Mary Jane Kelly, it seems to me that the other victims may have just been rough sleepers who weren't able to find their doss money for the night and bedded down in a door way or a quiet corner. How are we so certain they were prostitutes? There is no suggestion that they had sexual intercourse with the ripper, there was no money found on the bodies. On the police reports the word 'prostitute' was written into the section marked 'occupation' - but might this have just been a guess by the police that a woman walking the streets at night was a prostitute? In fact, it seems to me that most of the victims had been beggars.

[Errata]

This has occurred to me on several occasions. Aside from Mary Jane Kelly, it seems to me that the other victims may have just been rough sleepers who weren't able to find their doss money for the night and bedded down in a door way or a quiet corner. How are we so certain they were prostitutes? There is no suggestion that they had sexual intercourse with the ripper, there was no money found on the bodies. On the police reports the word 'prostitute' was written into the section marked 'occupation' - but might this have just been a guess by the police that a woman walking the streets at night was a prostitute? In fact, it seems to me that most of the victims had been beggars.

I think that we aren't quite so certain, and those of us that have any kind of certainty don't all have it for the same reasons. Some rely on specific facts, some on general behavior, some on societal truths...

I am certain that each of those women were propositioned, and were presented with the "opportunity" of prostitution. I am certain that these women were far closer to such activity that most women are today, certainly they knew prostitutes, certainly they had at least heard of the advantages of prostitution, and I would bet money that each of these women thought about it at one point in time or another. And certainly barring the extra income, these women were socially no higher or lower than prostitutes.

I am uncertain if all of them actually crossed the line. And I don't know that those who did cross that line didn't cross right back once they got out of a bad situation. So one of them may have prostituted herself five years previous, but not since. Which makes victimology a little awkward.

I find it easier to assume that the motive was not related to prostitution, or if it was, it was an extremely loose definition. A man who sees all lower class women as prostitutes. Or interprets every smile as a proposition. Thats my trick for making it work. Other people work it out in other ways.

[Damaso Marte]

There are in fact many on this forum who will tell you that there is absolutely no evidence that Stride or Eddowes were out prostituting on the night of their deaths.

[GUT]

There are in fact many on this forum who will tell you that there is absolutely no evidence that Stride or Eddowes were out prostituting on the night of their deaths.

That's different however to the question "we're they prostitutes".

[Columbo]

I wouldn't think they were prostitutes in the traditional sense. Only when times got tough. Eddowes went hopping, Chapman was reported to selling sewn trinkets of sorts. I don't know about Nichols and Stride if they did anything of the sort.

Kelly was probably the only prostitute by trade and most likely a maneater based on Barnett's testimony. She apparently only went out on the streets when she didn't have a man taking care of her.

Columbo

[GUT]

I wouldn't think they were prostitutes in the traditional sense. Only when times got tough. Eddowes went hopping, Chapman was reported to selling sewn trinkets of sorts. I don't know about Nichols and Stride if they did anything of the sort.

Kelly was probably the only prostitute by trade and most likely a maneater based on Barnett's testimony. She apparently only went out on the streets when she didn't have a man taking care of her.

Columbo

Pretty much my take too

Unfortunates not prostitutes.

[John G]

Stride had been registered as a prostitute in Sweden, and on the night of her murder appeared to have been seen, by witnesses, in the company of several different men.

[c.d.]

Pretty much my take too

Unfortunates not prostitutes.

Hello GUT,

Unfortunates or prostitutes, they still went off to dark corners with men they didn't know to exchange sex for money.

c.d.

[c.d.]

There are in fact many on this forum who will tell you that there is absolutely no evidence that Stride or Eddowes were out prostituting on the night of their deaths.

But it seems that those same posters rely on this take on things as the basis for their particular theory.

On the other hand, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is probably a duck.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Also keep in mind that even if some of the victims were not actively soliciting that night there is no way we can determine their response if approached and offered money for sex right then and there. So active solicitation is not a requirement for being a Ripper victim.

c.d.

[GUT]

Hello GUT,

Unfortunates or prostitutes, they still went off to dark corners with men they didn't know to exchange sex for money.

c.d.

No argument on that from me.

[GUT]

Also keep in mind that even if some of the victims were not actively soliciting that night there is no way we can determine their response if approached and offered money for sex right then and there. So active solicitation is not a requirement for being a Ripper victim.

c.d.

Again, totally agree.

[Errata]

Hello GUT,

Unfortunates or prostitutes, they still went off to dark corners with men they didn't know to exchange sex for money.

c.d.

Well, we don't know why they went off with strange men. I'm not saying that sex for money is not a very good guess, but it is a guess. For all we know the killer told these women he found a baby abandoned and will they come take a look or something.

[Columbo]

Also keep in mind that even if some of the victims were not actively soliciting that night there is no way we can determine their response if approached and offered money for sex right then and there. So active solicitation is not a requirement for being a Ripper victim.

c.d.

Good point. From the testimony Liz Stride wasn't interested in sex with the person she saw, and it sounded like Annie Chapman was also a little hesistant.

Columbo

[Michael W Richards]

There are in fact many on this forum who will tell you that there is absolutely no evidence that Stride or Eddowes were out prostituting on the night of their deaths.

You can include Kelly in the list above. As many still seem unwilling to concede, establishing a consistent pattern of such behavior for many of the Canonicals is troublesome, and even infrequent participation in solicitous events cannot be accurately determined. Most of it is, as cd illustrates, merely presumptive, not conclusive.

Thats why I suggest that we can only use what is known about these women to conclude anything about their particpation in prostitution. And in the cases of the Canonicals, we have evidence that Polly, and Annie, were actively soliciting on the respective nights they were murdered. They as much as admitted so to close friends, and those witness statements are the only evidence in all 5 cases that any of them solicited on the nights they were killed, let alone on a regular basis.

It is assumed Liz Stride was soliciting, yet we have her on a street all but abandoned near 1am. It is assumed Sailor Man was a client, yet we cannot even be sure that the woman in that scenario was Kate, let alone that the interaction between them was part of any negotiations for fees. And the last credible witness to see Mary Kelly alive was Mary Ann Cox, and she saw her enter her room quite intoxicated before midnight, with company. The assumption is that the company was a client..which is pure speculation and contrary to the actual evidence that suggests Mary had little if any opportunity or interest in to turning her room into a squalor brothel since Joe, then Maria, left.

Its very important that any discussions about how the killer meets the victim include this bit of data, because as it stands, the ever present notion that the Jack the Ripper cases are about working street prostitutes being savaged by a stranger who was posing as a client does not have any actual support within the known evidence in 60% of the cases assumed to be by the mythical killer.

That means of course that the evidence in the majority of so called Ripper cases do not show any link between street prostitution and the victims activities on the nights they were killed.