Mouth damage

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm a little confused by the various descriptions of Liz Stride's mouth given at inquest.

Elizabeth Tanner identified 'Long Liz' as follows;

"[Coroner] You are quite certain it is the body of the same woman? - Quite sure. I recognise, beside the features, that the roof of her mouth is missing."

Michael Kidney seems to confirm this;

"[Coroner] Was the roof of her mouth defective? - Yes. "

Dr Phillips, on first giving his PM report, doesn't find this, only noting;

"....Teeth on left lower jaw absent...."

"A Juror: You have not mentioned anything about the roof of the mouth. One witness said part of the roof of the mouth was gone. - Witness: That was not noticed. "

"Dr. Phillips, surgeon of the H Division of police, being recalled, said: On the last occasion I was requested to make a re-examination of the body of the deceased, especially with regard to the palate, and I have since done so at the mortuary, along with Dr. Blackwell and Dr. Gordon Brown. I did not find any injury to, or absence of, any part of either the hard or the soft palate."

Kidney is recalled to answer this point;

"[Coroner] The Coroner: What made you think there was anything the matter with the roof of her mouth? - She told me so.
[Coroner] Have you ever examined it? - No.
[Coroner] Well, the doctors say there is nothing the matter with it? - Well, I only know what she told me."

Coroner's summing up, drawing comparisons between Liz Stride and Elizabeth Watts/Stokes (Mary Malcolm's sister, thought by her to be the victim);

"both had lost their front teeth"

Which, as far as I can tell, wasn't mentioned by anyone else at inquest about either.

Given all the contrasting evidence, can anything definite be said about the state of Liz's mouth?

[Kattrup]

Interesting question.

Frankly, as Kidney himself states he never examined her mouth, but knew only what she told him, I find no reason to doubt the conclusion that her story was a tall tale told for sympathy.

As for the front teeth missing, I agree that it's odd, but since she was missing teeth (left lower jaw, not really precise as to front or back of mouth?), perhaps the coroner was just making a general and vague comparison?

[Joshua Rogan]

It does seem possible that it was a tall tale, I suppose. But Liz Tanner seemed to say that she identified the body (partly) by the missing roof of the mouth. Was she just mistaken, making it up, or was she seeing something that the doctors weren't?

[Kattrup]

To my mind, she was mistaken. As happens:

It is the body of my sister, Elizabeth Watts.
[Coroner] You have no doubt about that? - Not the slightest.

[Rosella]

I think teeth missing was more usual than not among the poor in that era. She had that story didn't she that some man had kicked her in the mouth during the 'Princess Alice' disaster, damaging her mouth. When you look at Stride's post mortem photo there does seem to be something odd about the shape of her mouth, but there probably wasn't.

I think Lis may well have had a lisp and not spoken very clearly because of the missing teeth. Certainly if part of her palate was missing then she could have experienced difficulties eating and lots of dental problems. Instead, there she is, sucking grapes and lozenges, no trouble at all.

[Joshua Rogan]

I can quite see someone spinning the 'Princess Alice' tale to give an unusual explanation for teeth lost in a more mundane fashion. Less so that they would claim it caused an affliction they didn't have. But who knows.

Nice soft grapes, I would have thought, are something even someone with a damaged palate could manage (less so cachous, perhaps), but according to the doctors there was no evidence of any grapes, or indeed, any damage.

I remember reading a newspaper article remarking something about her lips, I will try and dig it out...

[David Orsam]

Evidence of Inspector Reid at Stride inquest:

"I guessed her age at 42, length 5ft. 2in. complexion pale, hair dark brown and curly. I raised an eyelid and found that her eyes were light grey; I parted her lips and found that she had lost her upper teeth in front." (Times, 6 October 1888)

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks David! I don't know how I overlooked that...
I'm puzzled that the doctors didn't mention the missing front teeth though, especially after they made a second examination specifically to check for damage to her mouth (unless I've overlooked that too).

PS interesting to note that Reid is about the only person to estimate her age with any accuracy. Even Kidney thought she was younger.

[Joshua Rogan]

When you look at Stride's post mortem photo there does seem to be something odd about the shape of her mouth, but there probably wasn't.

Here is the curious quote about her lips that I was trying to remember, in a report from the London Evening News 1st Oct;

"Her hair is auburn, her lips thick, the upper one especially so, with that sort of double fold often noticed in lascivious women."

Also, several other newspapers mention that "She had lost her teeth, and suffered from a throat affection."

[Joshua Rogan]

Aside from the Princess Alice disaster, I'm intrigued by Mary Malcom's mention of another nautical tale at inquest.

"Coroner] Has she ever told you of troubles she was in with any man? - Oh yes; she lived with a man.
[Coroner] Do you know his name? - I do not remember now, but I shall be able to tell you to- morrow. I believe she lived with a man who kept a coffee-house at Poplar.
Inspector Reid: Was his name Stride? - No; I think it was Dent, but I can find out for certain by to-morrow.
The Coroner: How long had she ceased to live with that man? - Oh, some time. He went away to sea, and was wrecked on the Isle of St. Paul, I believe.
[Coroner] How long ago should you think that was? - It must be three years and a half; but I could tell you all about it by to-morrow, even the name of the vessel that was wrecked. "

I'd never heard of the Isle of St Paul; turns out it's a remote, uninhabited volcanic island in the Indian Ocean, half way between Australia and South Africa. So no surprise it had escaped my attention. But there was a shipwreck there, in 1871, when the troop transport ship HMS Megaera was beached with several hundred recruits on board. The ship never left, but the crew were rescued after a couple of months.
Although this was a lot earlier than the 'three years and a half' ago suggested, it might have been the inspiration for this tall-ship tale. The question remains though as to who first told it; Mary, her sister or Liz?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Megaera_(1849)

http://www.pdavis.nl/MegaeraILN.htm

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39252994

[Rosella]

How really really odd, Joshua, especially remembering that John Stride was a ship's carpenter at one point, and the son of a shipwright. As well, he owned a coffee house in Poplar in the 1870's.

Was he on board the Magaera, I wonder, when it was wrecked and left the sea for good on account of it at his wife's behest? Perhaps he was leading a double life or shacked up with Elizabeth Watts (Mary's sister) after his marriage to Stride broke up?

It's odd too that three out of the C5 had, or may have had, ginger to auburn hair. Jack's favourite colour?

[Joshua Rogan]

Well it seems I'm not the first to wonder about the Magaera, see this old thread from Simon Wood;

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-2082.html

He mentions an interview with Elizabeth Stokes in the Morning Advertiser 10th Oct, which expands upon her inquest testimony and confirms that the story of the shipwrecked husband comes from her. However, she says her husband died on the island, but records say all crew survived. So perhaps it was another shipwreck, or another island. She does end the interview by saying "Owing to my troubles my memory is somewhat impaired."
She definitely states that she hadn't seen her sister Mary Malcolm for several years, so who was Mary seeing every Saturday, and giving a shilling to?
We know that Malcolm and Stride looked similar, and Stride must have looked enough like Stokes to be confused with her at the mortuary. Is it at all possible that Mrs Malcolm had bumped into Stride at some point, mistaking her for her own sister (who she hadn't seen for years)? And Stride played along, to cadge a shilling from her every week?

[Rosella]

Stranger things have happened, Josh, and I can imagine Stride doing something like that, although she would be in trouble if Mary asked her a question or two about their childhood. On the other hand this woman's memory is self-confessedly impaired, so who knows.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've always thought that no record of Stride losing her husband in the Princess Alice disaster was ever found, but this report seems to say that confirmation was indeed dscovered;

Echo 8th October 1888;

"With reference to the identity of Elizabeth Stride, the Woolwich newspapers of the time of the Princess Alice disaster have been referred to and it has been found that a woman of that name was a witness at the inquest, and identified the body of a man as her husband, and of two children then lying in Woolwich Dockyard. She said she was on board at the time, and saw them drowned her husband picking up one of the children and being drowned with it in his arms. She was saved by climbing the funnel, where she was accidentally kicked in the mouth by a retired Arsenal police inspector, who was also clinging to the top of the funnel. The husband and two children are buried in Woolwich Cemetery."

[Fisherman]

When one has spent so much time out here as I have, one recognizes the questions. This has been up before, and George Bagster Phillips said that there was nothing wrong with the roof of Strides mouth.
If my memory serves me, that is. IŽll try and locate it. (the quotation, not the memory)

Found it! Times, October 6:

Dr. Phillips was re-called and said:- After the last examination, in company with Dr. Blackwell and Dr. Brown, I went to the mortuary and examined more carefully the roof of the mouth. I could not find any injury to or absence of anything from the mouth.