For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I beg of you, sir please learn to spell cachous correctly.

You are right. I don't think the B.S.man's encounter with Stride was a big deal. My point was addressed to those who believe the B.S. man killed her. Thus your confusion. It is possible that she went into the yard voluntarily but I think that highly unlikely. Now if the B.S. man dragged her as some believe, I think it is reasonable to assume that Stride tried to fend him off in which case I find it hard to believe that the cachous survived that.

Now I know you hate the cachous argument. But it is something that can be tested to some degree. Ask your friends to throw themselves on the couch or bed and see if they catch themselves with their palm open. Then tell them you are going to try to drag them against their will and ask them to resist. See if their hand is open or in a fist as they try to push you away. And if you come back and say hey c.d. I tried this with ten people and nobody had an open palm I will have to reconsider things.

Now even if all ten you test have an open palm it doesn't mean that Stride could not have held on to the cachous. The best we can do is determine probability and what is more likely. But even if we toss out the cachous theory the B.S. man as Stride's killer still holds a lot of red flags.

c.d.

Cashoo! ; )

[c.d.]

Gesundheit

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Gesundheit

c.d.

Thank you. Lol

[Sam Flynn]

Not very likely sam. And this man was also wearing a peaked cap like the other witnesses all describe.

Indeed so. I'm as sure as I can be that Lawende - not to mention Levy and Harris - saw Eddowes with her killer, minutes before her death.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Abby,

I beg of you, sir please learn to spell cachous correctly.

You are right. I don't think the B.S.man's encounter with Stride was a big deal. My point was addressed to those who believe the B.S. man killed her. Thus your confusion. It is possible that she went into the yard voluntarily but I think that highly unlikely. Now if the B.S. man dragged her as some believe, I think it is reasonable to assume that Stride tried to fend him off in which case I find it hard to believe that the cachous survived that.

Now I know you hate the cachous argument. But it is something that can be tested to some degree. Ask your friends to throw themselves on the couch or bed and see if they catch themselves with their palm open. Then tell them you are going to try to drag them against their will and ask them to resist. See if their hand is open or in a fist as they try to push you away. And if you come back and say hey c.d. I tried this with ten people and nobody had an open palm I will have to reconsider things.

Now even if all ten you test have an open palm it doesn't mean that Stride could not have held on to the cachous. The best we can do is determine probability and what is more likely. But even if we toss out the cachous theory the B.S. man as Stride's killer still holds a lot of red flags.

c.d.

And if you do this, compare the results between hands empty and when they are holding something small, like the tissue paper wrapped cachous, and tell them they do not want to drop it if possible. The test needs to test the situations described in the various possibilities.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

He didn't choose the spot full stop. Annie Chapman saw to that. It was revealed at inquest that the passage and yard were being used by lets say shady characters. He was definitely batting on a sticky wicket, entering that backyard. Although considering the records he was more of a bowler than a batsman.

Agreed, Chapman chose the spot, but she didn't choose to be attacked there, that was his choice. So he chose that spot to attack her. Thats basically what I meant.
She chose the place for the sexual encounter, but it was his choice whether to attack her there which means it must have been suitable for that brief moment in time.

[Michael W Richards]

How likely is it that a different couple, one of whom at least vaguely resembled Eddowes, were seen at the entrance to Mitre Square within minutes of her being murdered in Mitre Square? And this, remember, on a rainy night in a rather quiet part of town, which was neither heavily populated nor thronging with people that night.

Brown saw a young woman whom he took for the middle aged woman murdered, at 12:45, Mrs Long saw someone who looked like Annie at 5:30, that part of the equation can be addressed by other examples. I agree that the foot traffic would have been low, but I can think of at least 5 police out and about near that area which to me suggests that some also likely encountered night walkers. Lawende and his buds were out.

Things like the tracing of the navel, the cutting of the colon, the face, the apron...I don't see those as being done by someone who felt he was in imminent danger of being caught. Like Marys de-engineering, that guy thought he had the time to do those creative cuts. Polly and Annies killer cut the victims in a way that was intended to grant access easier, access to what they wanted. Not a lot of superfluous cutting.

[Sam Flynn]

Brown saw a young woman whom he took for the middle aged woman murdered, at 12:45, Mrs Long saw someone who looked like Annie at 5:30, that part of the equation can be addressed by other examples. I agree that the foot traffic would have been low, but I can think of at least 5 police out and about near that area which to me suggests that some also likely encountered night walkers. Lawende and his buds were out.

Those other sightings happened in far more populous parts of town. The area around Mitre Square wouldn't have been too busy at the best of times - it wasn't as if it had much going for it, from the POV of a casual pedestrian. After all, Lawende and co were only in the vicinity because their club was there.

Things like the tracing of the navel, the cutting of the colon, the face, the apron...I don't see those as being done by someone who felt he was in imminent danger of being caught.

Which is congruent with the fact that that Mitre Square and its environs was a comparatively quiet location.

[Wickerman]

How likely is it that a different couple, one of whom at least vaguely resembled Eddowes,.....

Yes but, the resemblance was limited to her clothes, nothing else. Her clothes "looked similar" (according to Swanson), whatever that means, colour, pattern, what?
I can't imagine Eddowes was the only woman wearing dark clothes.
Lawende was not asked to identify the body because he had not seen her face.

......were seen at the entrance to Mitre Square within minutes of her being murdered in Mitre Square? And this, remember, on a rainy night in a rather quiet part of town, which was neither heavily populated nor thronging with people that night.

I'm sure you know this but I think it makes a difference.
The church at the bottom of Houndsditch (the next street over from Duke Street), on Aldgate, was St. Botolphs, locally known as "The Church of Prostitutes". This was the one spot in the city where they could find haven from being arrested. To suggest the streets were empty is probably a bit over the top given the number of prostitutes that frequented the land around the church.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a question but if we suggest that the injuries inflicted on Catherine Eddowes don’t point to a killer that felt he was in imminent danger of being caught, is this situation so vastly different to Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street? Granted that Eddowes was more extensively mutilated but Annie was still killed in someone’s backyard after all with a large number of occupants in the house (I can’t recall how many) and neighbours on both sides with windows overlooking the yard. Yet the killer still killed and mutilated her extensively. With Eddowes the extent of her injuries were based on how much time the killer actually had with her undisturbed as opposed to the time that he felt that he might have had. If he’d have heard a Constable’s footsteps 2 or 3 minutes earlier then he’d have left Catherine with less extensive mutilations.

[Wickerman]

With respect to the description of the victim (Eddowes), Swanson wrote:
"....but to the best of his (Lawende's) belief the clothing of the deceased, which was black was similar to that worn by the woman whom he had seen."

In reality Eddowes wore a black jacket trimmed with fur, and a dark green chintz skirt with a Michaelmas daisy & Gordon Lily pattern.

So, Lawende saw a woman in black clothing?

[JeffHamm]

Just a question but if we suggest that the injuries inflicted on Catherine Eddowes don’t point to a killer that felt he was in imminent danger of being caught, is this situation so vastly different to Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street? Granted that Eddowes was more extensively mutilated but Annie was still killed in someone’s backyard after all with a large number of occupants in the house (I can’t recall how many) and neighbours on both sides with windows overlooking the yard. Yet the killer still killed and mutilated her extensively. With Eddowes the extent of her injuries were based on how much time the killer actually had with her undisturbed as opposed to the time that he felt that he might have had. If he’d have heard a Constable’s footsteps 2 or 3 minutes earlier then he’d have left Catherine with less extensive mutilations.

Hi Herlock,

While Hanbury Street strikes me as the most risky of all the locations due to the lack of obvious escape routes, the time of day (with the sun coming up), also strikes me as adding to that. However, one of the locations has to be the most risky, and another will have to be the least risky (that's what ordering things does after all). And really, all of the locations are high risk locations, with only Kelly's being someone less so given it's inside. But, Kelly would have brought JtR to her room, which parallels what appears to be the case in the other murders (apart from Stride, if one goes for BS, as he seems to have attacked her in the street, and they end up in the Alley rather than the other way round - others view this differently of course, and Stride enters the alley with another subsequent person, but I digress).

So to me, all of the outdoor locations, including Stride (whether rightly or wrongly) are all extremely high risk, and in the same ballpark in that respect. I believe during Eddowes inquest it was testified by one of the doctor's that Eddowes' injuries would take 5 minutes. That's less than was estimated for Chapman, but I think the estimation for Chapman was based upon what appeared to be greater care taken, but that could just be because he could see better. And 5 minutes for the attack on Eddowes would fit with the known beat times.

Also, one of the PCs beats took him up Church Passage, which had a lamp at the Mitre Square end. That would impede his view into Mitre Square (hindering his ability to see JtR and Eddowes in the darkest corner), while highlighting him to JtR. If JtR leaves when the PC turns around, he could be out of there in time to avoid detection. Years ago I wrote a program to simulate the two PCs on their beats and JtR as leaving Mitre Square at the same speed as a patrolling PC, and things work quite easily using that as the trigger for him to leave. There's a window of time around that too that works, of course, but just saying.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

I'm sure you know this but I think it makes a difference.
The church at the bottom of Houndsditch (the next street over from Duke Street), on Aldgate, was St. Botolphs, locally known as "The Church of Prostitutes".

I was aware of the "prostitutes' church" story, but hasn't that been questioned as a bit of myth? Even if it wasn't, St Botolph's isn't Church Passage or Duke Street, and it was a rainy night. The odds of a couple other than Eddowes and her killer being seen chatting at the very entrance to Mitre Square minutes before Eddowes was killed there has to have been rather small.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

While Hanbury Street strikes me as the most risky of all the locations due to the lack of obvious escape routes, the time of day (with the sun coming up), also strikes me as adding to that. However, one of the locations has to be the most risky, and another will have to be the least risky (that's what ordering things does after all). And really, all of the locations are high risk locations, with only Kelly's being someone less so given it's inside. But, Kelly would have brought JtR to her room, which parallels what appears to be the case in the other murders (apart from Stride, if one goes for BS, as he seems to have attacked her in the street, and they end up in the Alley rather than the other way round - others view this differently of course, and Stride enters the alley with another subsequent person, but I digress).

So to me, all of the outdoor locations, including Stride (whether rightly or wrongly) are all extremely high risk, and in the same ballpark in that respect. I believe during Eddowes inquest it was testified by one of the doctor's that Eddowes' injuries would take 5 minutes. That's less than was estimated for Chapman, but I think the estimation for Chapman was based upon what appeared to be greater care taken, but that could just be because he could see better. And 5 minutes for the attack on Eddowes would fit with the known beat times.

Also, one of the PCs beats took him up Church Passage, which had a lamp at the Mitre Square end. That would impede his view into Mitre Square (hindering his ability to see JtR and Eddowes in the darkest corner), while highlighting him to JtR. If JtR leaves when the PC turns around, he could be out of there in time to avoid detection. Years ago I wrote a program to simulate the two PCs on their beats and JtR as leaving Mitre Square at the same speed as a patrolling PC, and things work quite easily using that as the trigger for him to leave. There's a window of time around that too that works, of course, but just saying.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I certainly agree that all of the locations were high risk with Hanbury Street being the riskiest. Someone opening that backdoor leaves the ripper trapped and with only three options. To push past the interloper and escape leaving a witness to identify him. To kill the witness. Or to try and scale the fence and escape via another backyard. Not great options. We can only suspect that Annie had convinced him that this was a safe spot (either that or the killer was completely unworried by risk.) I wonder if the ripper simply “bumped into” Catherine as she walked through Mitre Square or they ran into each other close by and Catherine suggested Mitre Square as a safe spot. After all, being caught in the act by a Constable was simply a risk of the job for her. The same couldn’t have been said for the ripper so he might simply have assumed that an experienced prostitute would know the areas with the least police presence which gave him a level of confidence that they were unlikely to be disturbed. Also, with the square having three exits, he had two options for escape should he hear someone approach from one of the exits.

[c.d.]

And if you do this, compare the results between hands empty and when they are holding something small, like the tissue paper wrapped cachous, and tell them they do not want to drop it if possible. The test needs to test the situations described in the various possibilities.

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Fair enough but the cachous were only penny candy. Would trying to hold on to them be worth a broken wrist if thrown down with force or take precedence over her very life if being dragged back into the yard?

c.d.