For what reason do we include Stride?

[Darryl Kenyon]

If the killer came up behind Liz, cutting her throat swiftly and silently pulling her back with the scarf as he did so whilst lowering her to the ground [maybe trying to avoid a thud] , and she never even saw him. Thus no time to react. How long would it before she lost conciousness?
If her hand was in a sort of fist holding the cachous, would it still not be as she reached for her scarf in the second or two before she lost conciousness?

[Sam Flynn]

No time to react? How long does it take to let go of a packet of sweets?

[Darryl Kenyon]

No time to react? How long does it take to let go of a packet of sweets?

Just a thought Sam but if she lost conciousness straight away, not sure, but do the hands not tighten?
Regards Darryl

[Sam Flynn]

Just a thought Sam but if she lost conciousness straight away, not sure, but do the hands not tighten?

I'm not sure either, but I think it's unlikely she'd have lost consciousness right away in any case, even with a swift cut to the throat. Besides, I'd guess that letting go of a packet of sweets would take only milliseconds.

[Abby Normal]

the cashoo is the biggest red herring in ripperology.

she simply held on to them through the attack and death. one can come up with all kinds of reasons and excuses that she SHOULD have dropped them. she didn't. simple as that.


its common knowledge now that victims will do this. Its not that uncommon that murdered victims will be found still clutching something in there hand. Even victims of violent car accidents do this.

to try to deny this just means you cant grasp the idea because you think something else should happen or it dosnt fit with some pre conceived theory.

she held on to them get over it.

[Sam Flynn]

to try to deny this just means you cant grasp the idea because you think something else should happen or it dosnt fit with some pre conceived theory.

Calm down, dear! I don't have a preconceived theory; just trying to reconstruct her final movements, that's all. If she wanted one final sweet before death, or fished out the packet mistaking it for a hanky to staunch her blood, that simply makes it all the more poignant. Whether true or not, I still find it difficult to see that she was so suddenly bumped off she couldn't even manage to drop a bag of sweets. Not that it matters much either way.

[Abby Normal]

Calm down, dear! I don't have a preconceived theory; just trying to reconstruct her final movements, that's all. If she wanted one final sweet before death, or fished out the packet mistaking it for a hanky to staunch her blood, that simply makes it all the more poignant. Whether true or not, I still find it difficult to see that she was so suddenly bumped off she couldn't even manage to drop a bag of sweets. Not that it matters much either way.

LOL> Sam I wasn't talking specifically about your post-which is why I didn't use quote function!!!

or fished out the packet mistaking it for a hanky to staunch her blood,

now that's not a bad idea-the best one yet Ive heard other than she just held on to them during the attack! never seen this one before.

[Wickerman]

These cachous are often described as being in a packet. A packet could be a paper bag, or a box.
I don't see any newspaper describing the packet as a bag, but one newspaper does call it a box.

"The body when found was quite warm. In one hand was clutched a box of sweets, and at her breast were pinned two dahlias; she was respectfully dressed for her class, and appears to be about thirty-five years of age."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/pall_mall_gazette/18881001.html

[Rob1n]

Hello Pat,

Why does a crime of passion have to be limited to a non-Jack killer? I can see Jack overcome with a desire to kill this woman only to come to the realization a few minutes later that this was not a good place to do it and that he had made a mistake.

As for a domestic, I would expect an argument which nobody heard post Schwartz as well as a few slaps to the face in an escalation of anger. No evidence for either. Also no stabs to the body which would indicate uncontrollable anger. What happened seems all too controlled and calculated.

c.d.

I'm inclined to agree, it seems that Jack liked the risk factor, most, apart from the kelly murder were discovered fairly quickly after the attack, it seems to me that there were far too many people around this one. Jack may well have realised that this was a mistake and got away quickly. Perhaps he though the heat was on north of Whitechapel road/high st so, tried out a slightly different area where an attack wouldn't be expected, I'd imagine the Police had concentrated their patrols more towards the Commercial street/ Whitechapel rd area and that this wasn't where they would have expected Jack to strike. I think Jack was outside his comfort zone here and realised it quite quickly.

[JeffHamm]

I thought I would throw this out as a speculative suggestion. We know the cachous were found in her left hand, lodged between thumb and forefinger. The presumption, therefore, is that she was holding them when she was attacked.

I recall my grandmother used to tuck tissues up her sleeve, because the cuffs fit close and such things wouldn't fall out. They would be easy to access, and the lack of pockets on women's blouses and clothing in general, made this a convenient location. What if Stride did the same? The left sleeve was used as a sort of "pocket", where she kept the cachous, easily pulled out by her right hand. During the struggle when she's put to the ground, they become dislodged, fall out, either into her hand, and she ends up grasping them, or onto the ground and her hand ends up on top of them.

I'm certainly not convinced myself that's what happened, and I'm wondering if it sounds feasible as an explanation to others? Basically, it would mean that despite the cachous being found in her hand, she wasn't holding them during the attack.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

No time to react? How long does it take to let go of a packet of sweets?

The cashous indicate that she was surprise attacked, the scarf evidence indicates that she was grabbed from behind by the scarf and that it was twisted tightly as the knife went across her throat, the location of the murder suggests that she felt entitled to be in that passageway at that time, and the fact that another woman was killed in more "Ripper-like" fashion on the same night is the reason she is included in the Canon. If you would like to include any murder that happened during those months, no matter how dissimilar to Polly and Annie in both circumstantial evidence and physical evidence, and if you want to use a statement from an alledged witness to an altercation that is completely absent in the proceeding that was held to determine her manner of death, and if you want to ignore that the Mens Club and some witnesses that night were considered anarchists by the local people and law enforcement, and that they attacked police with clubs in that yard less than 6 months later resulting in the arrest of at least 2 of the witnesses from the Double Event night,....then you can consider any real answer to who killed Liz and why, beyond your grasp.

Ive become tired of being diplomatic on this most obvious point all these years,so.... Liz was very clearly not killed by a Ripper and many of the clubs senior staffers including the nights speaker definately lied about certain aspects of what actually transpired.

[drstrange169]

Hello Jeff,

Mrs Stride had pockets, in which were;

• A key (as of a padlock)
• A small piece of lead pencil
• Six large and one small button
• A comb
• A broken piece of comb
• A metal spoon
• A hook (as from a dress)
• A piece of muslin
• One or two small pieces of paper

I can't remember, was she left handed, anyone?

[JeffHamm]

The lack of pockets was more in reference to my grandmother's reason for doing so. And of course, her jackets would have pockets, but she did this anyway as it was convenient to keep them there. I could see breath mints being something one might want easy access too. And they would be stored in the left sleeve by a right handed person, who would use their right hand for putting them away and getting them out again.

Anyway, I just thought that using the sleeves as a storage area might have been something some people did at a time when cuffs could have been more tight fitting.

- Jeff

[Leanne]

These cachous are often described as being in a packet. A packet could be a paper bag, or a box.
I don't see any newspaper describing the packet as a bag, but one newspaper does call it a box.

"The body when found was quite warm. In one hand was clutched a box of sweets, and at her breast were pinned two dahlias; she was respectfully dressed for her class, and appears to be about thirty-five years of age."
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881001.html

Victorian Cachous tin: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...pers-269910757

[Leanne]

1880s sweets tin container:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163121558280?ul_noapp=true