For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

You are describing two different men here. I thought you were of an opinion that Stride was with the same man from Best, and Gardener, through to Schwartz.

I realise that witness testimony can cause great confusion regarding identity. Best described the man he had seen with Stride as well dressed, with a billycock hat, thick black mustache. They were adamant that the woman was Stride.

Marshal seems to be describing the same man, but testified that he wore a peaked cap, and looked middle aged.

PC Smith described a young man late twenties, wearing a dark overcoat, and a deerstalker hat. Most importantly he was carrying a parcel.

Best Gardener, and Marshal were adamant that the man they saw did not carry a parcel. Confusing? Most certainly.

I believe Stride was with at least two men that night, Marshall Best and Gardener, describing the same man, and PC Smith another different man. and was possibly assaulted by a third, namely BS man.

Apologies to the old timers here, this ground has been covered many times here here in this Forum.

Hi Observer
I was simply trying to get clarification on your scenario:

Originally Posted by Observer
20 minutes to half an hour. This of course a rough estimate. I wouldn't personally use the Doctor's estimate to determine time of death, but admittedly he's in the range. If Schwartz's man merely pulled Stride about, and threw her to the pavement, and then immediately left the scene, and if Deimshutz disturbed the killer at 1:00 a.m. then we have about 12 minutes for another assailant to enter the scene, win Strides confidence, take her into the yard and kill her. I believe it's possible that this man was the man as seen by PC Smith. The man with the parcel.

so do you think parcel man was her killer?

if you do, she would have to been with parcel man, then assaulted by BS man (he then leaves), then killed by parcel man.

wheres parcel man when shes being assaulted by BS man then?

[Abby Normal]

The main thing about the different description hats:

the peaked cap man made an impression on Abberline (see my sig).

none of the other types of hats.


Marshall, Schwartz and Lawende and company, anon church street sighting all describe peaked cap-"like something a sailor would wear".


PC smith and Mrs. long describe a deer stalker. It may be the same hat.


to me the most likely and simplist explanation is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event- and PC smith was slighlty off and best and gardner were just off.


we have Abberline who goes with peaked cap-Ill go with Abberline on this one.

[Busy Beaver]

Perhaps the killer changed hats to confuse every one.

[John Wheat]

Perhaps the killer changed hats to confuse every one.

It's not that unlikey. People weren't complete morons in 1888.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps the killer changed hats to confuse every one.

I think Stride may have gotten a little suspicious.

[Bridewell]

Then, if he was JTR, why did he not mutilate the body?

I don't know!

[Bridewell]

IF the police had a believable, or rather believed, witness statement that was available before Strides Inquest that placed Liz Stride in the hands of someone she is seen being manhandled by just minutes before the estimate time of her throat cut, it would have been submitted to or presented at the Inquest.

It wasn't.

Israel Schwartz offered nothing but a demonstration of his allegiance to his friend, Wess, and his support of the anarchist jews that gathered there. He was very likely a member. Like Goldstein was. Or Eagle.

The purpose of an inquest is to establish when where and how the death occurred. Schwartz would have been needed for a trial where his evidence might be crucial. Did the coroner need to call him in order to establish where when and how Stride was killed? The fact that he wasn't called to give evidence at the inquest doesn't mean that he was discredited as a witness in possible criminal proceedings.

[Michael W Richards]

The purpose of an inquest is to establish when where and how the death occurred. Schwartz would have been needed for a trial where his evidence might be crucial. Did the coroner need to call him in order to establish where when and how Stride was killed? The fact that he wasn't called to give evidence at the inquest doesn't mean that he was discredited as a witness in possible criminal proceedings.

I humbly submit that a story that has her being assaulted within feet of her murder site, within minutes from the estimated cut time...would go a long way when considering how, and when, she died.

The fact that his story does not appear to have been recorded, transcribed or submitted in any form suggests that his story was not deemed relevant...despite the fact that as I suggest, it would certainly be relevant if believed to be true.

I think Israel has occupied a lofty position here, one that is not suggested when considering the Inquest. If you recall, Mrs Fanny Mortimer gave a statement that she did not hear anything, or see anyone but the young couple, in her visits to the door off and on until 12:50...at which point she remained in that position until 1am. No Israel. No Louis arriving at 1am.

[c.d.]

yes. if anyone pushes, grabs a hold of, and or throws someone to the ground its actually assault and battery. a crime even! clear as day.


not sure what your fixation on this is CD.

Hello Abby,

I guess my question is whether all assaults are equal? If he pinched her in the butt would that be the same as taking a brick and smashing her face in since they are both assaults?

I have a fixation with it because so many posters say how likely is it that a woman would be assaulted twice in the course of a few minutes? They take two events, event A which is Stride being assaulted by the B.S. man and view it in light of event B which is Stride being killed. They are assuming that those two events are related because they are both assaults. But if you drop the assault label from event A and substitute pushed instead the connection with event B is not nearly as strong.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"and BTW, being solicited by a woman isn't an excuse for assaulting her. the actions Schwartz described is an assault. period."

Hello Abby,

But how do we know that Stride was not the first to put her hands on him. Maybe she was the aggressor.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Same woman got attacked twice in the space of about 5 minutes by two different men? Not impossible but rather unlikely.

Hello Bridewell,

Change attacked to pushed and change 5 minutes to 15 or 20 and the likelihood increases significantly.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"I humbly submit that a story that has her being assaulted within feet of her murder site, within minutes from the estimated cut time...would go a long way when considering how, and when, she died."

Hello Michael,

HUMBLY submit? Well there's a first/

c.d.

[c.d.]

IF the police had a believable, or rather believed, witness statement that was available before Strides Inquest that placed Liz Stride in the hands of someone she is seen being manhandled by just minutes before the estimate time of her throat cut, it would have been submitted to or presented at the Inquest.

It wasn't.

Israel Schwartz offered nothing but a demonstration of his allegiance to his friend, Wess, and his support of the anarchist jews that gathered there. He was very likely a member. Like Goldstein was. Or Eagle.

Hello Michael,

We DON'T KNOW why Schwartz was not called at the inquest. Period.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

We DON'T KNOW why Schwartz was not called at the inquest. Period.

c.d.

We do know that his story is not found on any record of the Inquest cd, and that's enough for us to believe that it wasn't relevant or important in the question of how Liz Stride died.

Its not improper to draw conclusions when all the evidence you need is, or isn't, in print right before you. He didn't matter.

Which is counter intuitive when reviewing his statement, if anything he would be THE most valuable witness because his claim makes him the last person to see Liz alive. How could that not be relevant or important to the matter at hand?

Its pretty clear that PC Smith is the last witness to see Liz alive, and she may have been cut in as little as 11 minutes later.

[Michael W Richards]

"I humbly submit that a story that has her being assaulted within feet of her murder site, within minutes from the estimated cut time...would go a long way when considering how, and when, she died."

Hello Michael,

HUMBLY submit? Well there's a first/

c.d.

Sometimes you have to approach a problem in a manner which has the best chance to succeed. Making this obvious point seemed like one of those problems.