The Cachous

[Jon Guy]

Hello Johnny 2,.

Hello ...number 2 ?

Of course, I wasn't referring to yourself, I consider you to be one of the Casebooks greatest intellects! ,.

Thank God, I thought we`d lost to you leathery old Lynn in Mordor.

But seriously,?

Ah, and you were doing so well, too .. ;-)

telling someone to go to "la la land" and calling them as "thick as a brick", is a little infantile, don't you think?.

Not if you mean it.

That said, I'm pretty robust. Unlike some, I've never reported a post and I've no intention of ever doing so. I believe in free speech.

Yes, you seem like a good guy, Johnny.
But don`t let Phil Martyr take you down Hysterical Lane when the fur flies :-)

[John G]

Hello ...number 2 ?



Thank God, I thought we`d lost to you leathery old Lynn in Mordor.




Ah, and you were doing so well, too .. ;-)



Not if you mean it.



Yes, you seem like a good guy, Johnny.
But don`t let Phil Martyr take you down Hysterical Lane when the fur flies :-)

Hello Number 1,

Another pretty good post, except I like Lynn and I wouldn't mind being Number 1! Some might say that I have a tendency to overreact sometimes, despite my otherwise robust nature, particularly when I write posts after just waking up! ( Note to self, stop writing posts when you've just woken up and you're feeling a little grumpy.) But, of course, It's something I would be unlikely to admit to!

And for the record, I'm perfectly willing to accept that Stride may have held on to the cachous after being stabbed repeatedly, wrestled to the ground, shot, kicked numerous times, decapitated, and dragged through a hedge backwards a dozen times! Unfortunately, none of that is remotely relevant to what actually happened.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Number 1,

Another pretty good post, except I like Lynn and I wouldn't mind being Number 1! Some might say that I have a tendency to overreact sometimes, despite my otherwise robust nature, particularly when I write posts after just waking up! ( Note to self, stop writing posts when you've just woken up and you're feeling a little grumpy.) But, of course, It's something I would be unlikely to admit to!

You can be Johnny number 1 when I`m dead.
I`m old, so shouldn`t be too long for you now.

Tread carefully on the dark side.

[John G]

You can be Johnny number 1 when I`m dead.
I`m old, so shouldn`t be too long for you now.

Tread carefully on the dark side.

Hello Number 1,

I've been thinking and I'm not sure I want the responsibility of being Number 1, so live long and prosper!

I'm a little afraid of the dark so that's good advice! Actually, except for the cachous we probably agree on quite a lot. I think JtR was probably responsible for the C5 and Tabram, and possibly even Smith and McKenzie. However, if Stride was killed by BS man, I don't think she was a JtR victim, which is one of the reasons I've argued so strongly that she wasn't. Conversely, I don't agree with Batman's "Ripperstein" theory, or that JtR was also the Torso killer. I also don't believe there's the remotest possibility that Chapman was JtR.

I also think that George Hutchison may have been telling the truth, which I guess puts me in a very small minority, although whether that's the dark or light side I don't know!

[lynn cates]

bets

Hello John. Thanks.

"none of that is remotely relevant to what Schwartz stated he witnessed."

Yes. That is what CD and I have been bellyaching about.

But, SOON some jester will post, "What's yore prolem? People hold on to things when dieing all thuh tyme."

Bet me?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

"none of that is remotely relevant to what Schwartz stated he witnessed."

Yes. That is what CD and I have been bellyaching about.

But, SOON some jester will post, "What's yore prolem? People hold on to things when dieing all thuh tyme."

Bet me?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, the very specific question, concerning Stride's instinctive response to avoid impact injuries after being thrown to the ground, has got lost in irrelevant arguments about holding on to things during quite different scenarios. It is not the seriousness of the assault that matters- in fact, in some situations you might grasp an article even tighter, I.e because of stress/ anxiety- but the instinctive response to avoid hitting the ground because you are unsupported.

And, as I noted in an earlier post, in this regard being thrown to the ground is very different to, say, being wrestled to the ground. If you don't ask the right question, you're likely to get the wrong answer, as interesting as it is to read posters anecdotes!

[Abby Normal]

Schwartz didn't witness a violent attack or someone being murdered! He witnessed a minor assault. The simple issue here is that when you are trying to break a fall, I.e after being "thrown" the natural instinct is to spread your hands! I mean even babies do it! I even found a personal injury website where those exact words were written. And if anyone should know it's a personal injury lawyer!

I would also reiterate what Phil Carter on the other thread has already pointed out to you and that is personal insults are against the rules of this board. If that what motivates you, rather than civil discussion, perhaps you should find some other forum.

But yes, enough of this nonsense.

Yes you are correct. it was infantile of me. I should have used a much more mature term, like yours

lack the intellect to grasp

: 0

I could say that you are also being hypocritical, but I wont.

Yes you go right ahead and use Phil Carter to back you up! It seems you two have a lot in common. By the way, look who commented on your whining about me in the other thread. I'll go with that guy.

Back to the red herring.

I at least have an open mind and can admit-its possible, maybe even probable, that she could have dropped them.

Can you at least admit its possible she could have held onto them?

[Errata]

There are any number of what ifs to get caught in, but we have certain truths.

There's no injury to her hands or wrists, no scraped palms, no disjointed fingers, no broken wrists. And I don't know if you've been thrown to the ground before, but if you do catch yourself with your hands you do in fact scrape them up. So either she didn't catch herself with her hands at all, or she didn't catch herself with her hands in any meaningful way, meaning she caught herself say, with her knees from a slow fall and placed her hands on the ground. Which by the way is a super common way to fall, ending up on hands and knees.

There are in fact many reasons why people don't catch themselves with their hands, personal injury lawyers aside. Especially, as it happens, if they are pushed.

And no matter what happened, why it is she is such a mutant she didn't fall on her hands, there is no reason whatsoever to think that she had cachous in her hand when she was thrown to the ground. False assumption. And not dropping them would cause more injury than a flat hand. In fact usually when someone busts their hand from catching themselves, it's because they caught themselves on a fist or with a clawed hand. The straight wrist break comes from using the heel of a flat hand. Single broken fingers are also from a fist or partially open hand. So none of that happened, so she clearly didn't break her fall with a fist. The cachous were in her hand or they weren't, but it doesn't matter because she didn't catch herself with her hands.

And all of that assumes that she had the time and mobility while she was falling to catch herself. Even if she really really wanted to, if she is being held by the arm, that arm isn't going to swing around in time. It won't make it. And often as not people content themselves with catching themselves using their forearms, elbows, or feet and legs. Sure it's not as popular as catching yourself with your hands and scraping the hell out of the heels of your hands, but we make do. And we have all see people who just couldn't catch themselves and make terrible falls. Now we know that Stride didn't do that either, but it does point out that we know it happens.

However she fell, she didn't fall hard enough to even break skin anywhere. Which sounds more like she was released and dropped, not that she was thrown. Or Schwartz was wrong and she was thrown into a wooden gate which let her bounce off of it with no damage.

You never wondered why contact sports aren't full of people with broken wrists? There's a population that falls all the time. There's reasons for that. There's a whole science of falling insurance companies and the NHL and NFL fund. Lots of research out there on it if you want to look.

[c.d.]

I can't believe that we are still arguing this point. Is it possible that Stride performed some ninja like black belt karate move that would have gotten her a starring role in some bad 70's Kung Fu movie? Absolutely. But we are talking about probabilities here not possibilities. If she were like most people she probably would have caught herself with her palms outstretched. That's why it is recommended that people who do in-line skating wear wrist protectors. It is simply natural that you will stretch out your palms to break your fall.

But don't forget that that is only the first step in the process. You also have to get back up. Now again, most people are going to put their weight on their hands with their palms outstretched in order to push themselves back up.

Some people have suggested that Stride then went voluntarily with the B.S. man into the passageway. Is that possible? Sure. But it is hard to believe that she would have felt that anything good could have come from that. If she had to be dragged and she was trying to fend off the B.S. man, it is again the natural thing to have the palm of your hand open in order to get leverage as opposed to using your fist. You see this in American football when runners and receivers use a "stiff arm" to push away defenders. Never a closed fist.

So in order for the cachous (which were only wrapped in tissue paper) to survive all this would take a good deal of luck. Is it possible? Sure. It just seems unlikely and that is the best we can do.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I suggest an experiment. If you have a friend, ask them to stand near their bed and then suddenly throw themselves upon it. (Don't tell them why until afterwards). Then ask them if they had their hands outstretched.

Then ask them to lay on the ground and take note of how they got up. See if they put their weight on their outstretched hands.

The grab them and try to pull them and have them resist. Notice if their palms are outstretched or in a fist.

Please share the results of your experiments.

c.d.

[Errata]

I suggest an experiment. If you have a friend, ask them to stand near their bed and then suddenly throw themselves upon it. (Don't tell them why until afterwards). Then ask them if they had their hands outstretched.

Then ask them to lay on the ground and take note of how they got up. See if they put their weight on their outstretched hands.

The grab them and try to pull them and have them resist. Notice if their palms are outstretched or in a fist.

Please share the results of your experiments.

c.d.

I have another experiment. Go stand out on a sidewalk and throw yourself forward with your hands outstretched in front of you. See what your hands look like.

Even if it did require ninja moves, which it doesn't, and even if it was the only normal way to fall, which it isn't...

It still didn't happen.

[John G]

Yes you are correct. it was infantile of me. I should have used a much more mature term, like yours
: 0

I could say that you are also being hypocritical, but I wont.

Yes you go right ahead and use Phil Carter to back you up! It seems you two have a lot in common. By the way, look who commented on your whining about me in the other thread. I'll go with that guy.

Back to the red herring.

I at least have an open mind and can admit-its possible, maybe even probable, that she could have dropped them.

Can you at least admit its possible she could have held onto them?

Yes, I accept it's theoretically possible. Yes, I accept my response was a little hypocritical, although perhaps intentionally so, because after a bad start to the day I suddenly remembered I believe in free speech- as I said to Jon I have never reported a post and I never will. So, yes, on that basis I hypocritically broke my own code of conduct. And so yes, on that basis I feel I should apologize. So I apologize.

[Batman]

Footballers use open palms because a fist is a foul. They are taught to do that. If you fall the natural reaction isn't hands outstretched like saving a football. You tense up before impact. Now there's a clue.

Anyway Dane pointed out what the experts find on a day to day basis. We have heard it again from another source and obviously plenty more where that came from.

[John G]

Footballers use open palms because a fist is a foul. They are taught to do that. If you fall the natural reaction isn't hands outstretched like saving a football. You tense up before impact. Now there's a clue.

Anyway Dane pointed out what the experts find on a day to day basis. We have heard it again from another source and obviously plenty more where that came from.

Hello Batman,

I'm not denying the possibility that someone could hold onto something during a sudden accident, or even a violent attack. However, none of those examples referred to by Dane are relevant. The question is: how to you instinctively attempt to protect yourself during a fall? I have some experience of this as I noted in a previous post. After slipping unexpectedly on some ice I was thrown backwards. Instinctively I spread my hands and thrust my arms into the ground As a consequence I dislocated my shoulder.

It is the same reason that snowboarders and skateboarders are vulnerable to wrist injuries, and why martial arts experts are trained to fall in a different way- a point you actually made yourself.

[lynn cates]

try

Hello John. Thanks.

"in fact, in some situations you might grasp an article even tighter"

Precisely. A move to the neck/throat is one such example.

And if some of the trolls on this thread would simply TRY this, the truth could be quickly ascertained.

Cheers.
LC