The Cachous

[lynn cates]

pocket

Hello Harry.

In my view, that's nearly correct. I think she had just RETRIEVED the cachous from her pocket.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Rachkovski

Hello John. Thanks.

I agree. A meeting is more likely than a waiting bloke.

And, yes, a prearranged murder seems unlikely. I used to think it was done to implicate the club. Okhrana chief, Piotr Rachkovski, had just come to London and, well . . .lots of research here.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

first two

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"I have always gone with the idea that the killer only choked his victims into insensibility before cutting their throats."

Of course, with Polly and Annie, he seems to have gone much further.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

I agree. A meeting is more likely than a waiting bloke.

And, yes, a prearranged murder seems unlikely. I used to think it was done to implicate the club. Okhrana chief, Piotr Rachkovski, had just come to London and, well . . .lots of research here.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I did wonder if Lave could be a plausible suspect. However, if he was responsible he would have to be completely stupid: he not only admitted leaving the club at around 12:40, he even stated that he walked as far as the gate!

[lynn cates]

interview

Hello John. Thanks.

Not to mention, he granted a press interview--possibly initiating it.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Practice

Hello Lynn

Practice makes perfect?

Gwyneth

[Abby Normal]

Hello Jon,

PC Smith is clearly an issue, so I'll therefore modify the scenario. Firstly, the parcel that PC Smith saw needn't have been anything sinister. After all, Goldstein's black bag turned out be completely innocuous.

Okay. I will hypothesis that BS man intends to kill Stride but not in that locality- because he lives close by and he decides that would be too risky. He's been trying, therefore, to persuade her to go with him to another pre-planned location. However, possibly because this is some distance away Stride has been reluctant to agree.

Unfortunately for him things have dragged on so long that he now has an errand to complete-the parcel relates to the errand. He asks Stride to wait for him by the club gates whilst he drops off the parcel: The person he needs to give the parcel to is known to him and may even be a family member; he is therefore reluctant to allow this person to see Stride in his company.

What Schwartz subsequently witnesses is the man returning to Stride. He now decides things have dragged on far too long and he's rapidly losing patience: He makes one final attempt to persuade Stride to go with him. When she still refuses, he gets frustrated and tries to pull her into the street, as witnessed by Schwartz, by way of further encouragement. However, as noted in the earlier post, she pulls back, loses her balance, spins round, and falls to the ground (Schwartz, unaware of the context, wrongly interprets this as Stride being thrown to the ground.)

He now decides that she is unlikely to be persuaded to go with him to the location so he has to improvise. He therefore tricks her into going with him into Dutfield's Yard as described in my earlier post.

Hi JohnG
Your new scenario has pointed out something that I never thought of before. In my scenario, they are standing by the gates when BS man gets frustrated and walks away, only to lose his temper and return and attack stride. this is where Schwartz enters-as BS has turned around and is going back to stride.

But it could have happened that they were up the street a bit and stride left him, walking back toward the gate and stopping there. And then BS man follows her(enter Schwartz) and attacks her in front of the gate.


I never thought it plausible that a woman/prostitute would follow a man who just attacked her into a secluded area. But points made on this thread have made me reconsider. Such as-it was not that bad of an assault. Whitechapel prostitutes probably were accustomed to this sort of thing. It eliminates the caschous problem.

And as I pointed out earlier, perhaps once she realized this guy was not going to be a new boyfriend, sugar daddy type, maybe she should just make the most of it, acquiesce, and make some money. So they enter the yard and she takes out the caschous. you suggested the rest and I find this scenario very possible.

[curious4]

Assualt

Hello Abby,

Sorry, can`t agree. Liz was more than aware of the dangers facing a woman on the streets (Dr Barnadoīs visit to the lodging house). Had she escaped, nothing would have tempted her back into the yard. And even if she had lost her sixpence, she still had the length of velvet back at her lodgings which she could have sold, so I doubt that she was looking for customers.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Privacy

Hello John,

If the man was indeed a frustrated customer, wouldnīt he have first tried to pull her into the yard? For privacy and to be undisturbed. Why would he try to pull her into the street? And again, she was not desperate for money and was aware of the dangers on the street. In fact the opposite is more likely. The Ripper attacked prostitutes, she was not selling herself and therefore felt safe.

Best wishes,
C4

[John G]

Hi JohnG
Your new scenario has pointed out something that I never thought of before. In my scenario, they are standing by the gates when BS man gets frustrated and walks away, only to lose his temper and return and attack stride. this is where Schwartz enters-as BS has turned around and is going back to stride.

But it could have happened that they were up the street a bit and stride left him, walking back toward the gate and stopping there. And then BS man follows her(enter Schwartz) and attacks her in front of the gate.


I never thought it plausible that a woman/prostitute would follow a man who just attacked her into a secluded area. But points made on this thread have made me reconsider. Such as-it was not that bad of an assault. Whitechapel prostitutes probably were accustomed to this sort of thing. It eliminates the caschous problem.

And as I pointed out earlier, perhaps once she realized this guy was not going to be a new boyfriend, sugar daddy type, maybe she should just make the most of it, acquiesce, and make some money. So they enter the yard and she takes out the caschous. you suggested the rest and I find this scenario very possible.

Hi Abby,

I think various scenarios are possible. For instance, in your scenario BS man might have been trying to get Stride to go with him to a pre-determined location for some time- particularly if he lives in the locality because he doesn't want to murder her anywhere near his residence. Now it could be that Stride obstinately refuses his request, perhaps more attracted by the singing and music emanating from the club, or because the suggested location is too far away; it might have even been Mitre Square!

He therefore decides initially that is plan simply isn't going to work so he walks away. However, he subsequently changes his mind and comes back for one last attempt. They argue, BS man then tries to draw her away from the club by pulling her arm.

Now, context is everything here. Schwartz believes that BS man threw Stride to the ground. However, if Stride was resisting his attempts to pull her into the street she may have simply lost her balance, spinning round and falling to the ground- or at least that's what BS man assures Stride must have happened. Of course, in this situation BS man will find it a lot easier to regain her confidence, possibly offering her the cachous by way of further apology. And, as I suggested in my earlier post, could he then have decided to improvise by offering to take Stride to the club via the side door?

[John G]

Hello John,

If the man was indeed a frustrated customer, wouldnīt he have first tried to pull her into the yard? For privacy and to be undisturbed. Why would he try to pull her into the street? And again, she was not desperate for money and was aware of the dangers on the street. In fact the opposite is more likely. The Ripper attacked prostitutes, she was not selling herself and therefore felt safe.

Best wishes,
C4

Hi C4,

Of course, this all just speculation. However, as I suggested in my earlier post, if BS man was the same as Marshall's man he may have been wandering around the neighbourhood with her for over an hour, possibly trying to convince her to go with him to a pre-determined location.

Pulling her into the street could have just been an act of frustration on his part. And, if he was Marshall's man, she may not have perceived him as a threat. After all, Marshall described a man who appeared well-educated, well-dressed, well-spoken, even charming. He might have even bought her a flower! And if he hadn't threatened her during this period she may have had no reason to fear him.

Of course, being thrown on the ground could have caused her to change her opinion of him. But if he apologies, and suggests that she simply lost her balance, he make get away with it. Particularly if he offers to take her to the club to enjoy the singing and music, giving her a packet of cachous as an additional inducement!

[curious4]

The club

Hello John,

In the prevailing climate I really believe she would have been wary of strangers, especially one who was pushing her around. The club was closed, with only the last stragglers hanging on to listen to the singers and she could her the music just as well outside. No, I canīt go for the killer inviting her into the club. It was very badly thought of by orthodox jews and if Liz got her living partly for cleaning for them she would be wary of upsetting them. Selling herself on occasion (if she did) was possibly ok, but frequenting that bad, bad club might well have put her job at risk. And cleaning was a step up from prostitution, after all.

Speculation is part of the fun on these boards and often a way forward. And in an infinity of parallel universes we may all be right - even the Queen Victoria theory!

Best wishes,
C4

[Jon Guy]

Hello all

With all this Club/Russian spies nonsense flying around, I thought I`d mention an excellent article from The Ripperologist from many years back (don`t know which issue - possibly around 2004)

Anyway, this one is based in reality and the gist of the theory was that another like-minded club (somewhere in Spitalfields - maybe the one in Princelet Street where there was a stampede following a gas leak which killed a few people) which was having serious run in`s with the club in Berner Street.

Does anyone remember the article ?

[John G]

Hello John,

In the prevailing climate I really believe she would have been wary of strangers, especially one who was pushing her around. The club was closed, with only the last stragglers hanging on to listen to the singers and she could her the music just as well outside. No, I canīt go for the killer inviting her into the club. It was very badly thought of by orthodox jews and if Liz got her living partly for cleaning for them she would be wary of upsetting them. Selling herself on occasion (if she did) was possibly ok, but frequenting that bad, bad club might well have put her job at risk. And cleaning was a step up from prostitution, after all.

Speculation is part of the fun on these boards and often a way forward. And in an infinity of parallel universes we may all be right - even the Queen Victoria theory!

Best wishes,
C4

Hello C4,

Some good points. However, if her killer assured her that he was a club member, and that he could gain her entry, that may have worked. Regarding Stride being wary. As I've noted, if her killer was Marshall's man she would have no reason to be concerned about him, quite the opposite. After all, he was well-dressed, appeared educated, well-spoken, even charming. He may have even bought her a flower and given her the cachous!

As I've noted, if he threw her to the ground, as described by Schwartz, that could be problematic, but is that what happened? As I've suggested, he may have been pulling her away from the gates in order to encourage her to go with him. In such circumstances, she may have simply lost her balance as she resisted.

[John G]

Hello all

With all this Club/Russian spies nonsense flying around, I thought I`d mention an excellent article from The Ripperologist from many years back (don`t know which issue - possibly around 2004)

Anyway, this one is based in reality and the gist of the theory was that another like-minded club (somewhere in Spitalfields - maybe the one in Princelet Street where there was a stampede following a gas leak which killed a few people) which was having serious run in`s with the club in Berner Street.

Does anyone remember the article ?

Hi Jon,

I very much doubt there was a club conspiracy. I mean, Lave even admitted leaving the club at around 12:40 and walking as far as the gate! the article you mention sounds very interesting, though. Unfortunately, it was well before my time- I'm only a sergeant, after all! Mind you, coincidentally 2004 was about the time I started to get seriously interested in Ripperology, although I've had a passing interest since the Michael Caine TV film in 1988. For quite a while I was convinced that JtR must be some eminent surgeon who traversed the neighbourhood in a carriage!